BRIGHT: When I arrived here three years ago, I had such high hopes. What an ignominious end I have led you to. I shall resign, of course.
THURSDAY: Sir…
BRIGHT: I failed him. I failed my men. The station gone. My brightest and best cast to the four winds. And all is brought to ruin.
Cometh the hour. The one true friend…
STRANGE: Bollocks to that.
THURSDAY: Sergeant…
STRANGE: No, sir. I won’t hear it. We might be down, but we’re not out. Not yet. Not by a long chalk. I’ll be damned if this is how it ends. We’ll have justice for him, sir. Whatever it takes.
THURSDAY: Jim’s right, sir. They can call us Thames Valley till the cows come home, but wherever we wash up, we’re City men – each one of us. To our boots. To the last.
BRIGHT: So few.
ENDEAVOUR: Enough to give him justice.
THURSDAY: We’ll find the bastard, sir.
BRIGHT: Your word on it.
THURSDAY: My oath.
STRANGE: And mine.
They look to ENDEAVOUR
ENDEAVOUR: For George
ICARUS (S5:E6)
DAMIAN: Pretty rousing stuff but I never quite understood what Russ meant by ‘Cometh the hour. The onetrue friend…’ when I first read the script and why Strange was the one true friend but, of course, I certainly do now. Endeavour was almost impotent with denial and Thursday spent most of the last series edging slowly towards the dark side. So, not only was Strange the one true friend, but to what extent might he also be described as the one true hero of series 6?
SEAN: He certainly stepped up to the plate. He’d be extremely red faced at being described as a hero though.
Double doors give on to a narrow vestibule/hall – a hard bench against a wall. Facing the open doors – a drop-leaf counter beyond which, the suggestion of a back room, from whence OPERATIC MUSIC floods the building.
ANGLE – SERVICE BELL on the counter. Beyond – out of focus – a UNIFORM sits with his back towards us, typing at a desk.
A hand comes down on the Service bell.
VISTOR (Off-screen): Shop!
UNIFORM rises – comes to the counter, and we recognise – ENDEAVOUR in full Thames Valley blues – three stripes on his sleeve. And sporting a moustache. His visitor – STRANGE – a touch of Brylcreem. Three-piece suit. Chelsea Boots.
STRANGE: This is where you’ve been keeping yourself, is it?
ENDEAVOUR’S not going to make this easy. A distance has fallen between them. Things unsaid, and for too long.
PYLON (S6:E1)
DAMIAN: Brylcreem, three-piece suit and Chelsea boots! – whatever happened to those rather fetching tank-tops?
SEAN: Being a style icon requires constant innovation and evolution. Strange and I have shown the world the many faces of the humble tank-top. It was time to move on!
STRANGE: We’re still no nearer to finding who did for George.
ENDEAVOUR: ‘We’? I’m here. You’re there. He’s [Thursday] at Castle Gate. Mister Bright at Traffic. There isn’t a we – not any more – nor likely to be.
STRANGE: We said…
ENDEAVOUR: You said. I don’t blame you. Heat of the moment. Like the last day of school. Solemn oaths and giddy declarations. ‘We happy few…’
STRANGE: I meant it.
ENDEAVOUR: I’m sure. But that’s not how it turned out. It’s never how these things turn out.
WIDE – two old friends, coffee table between them – the width of an ocean.
PYLON (S6:E1)
DAMIAN: I thought these and similar scenes in PYLON and throughout series 6 were beautifully written and, indeed, performed. He might not be as smart as Endeavour, but there’s no one more loyal and dependable when the chips are down than our Strange. Not only is he appalled by Endeavour’s attitude, but isn’t Strange also a little confused by it as well?
SEAN: The shock, and it was an extreme shock let us not forget, has affected them very differently. They are both grieving. Strange is using it as fuel whilst Morse uses it to build a wall around himself. It’s definitely confusing.
DAMIAN: Despite this, Strange continues to help Endeavour and even lies to ACC Bottoms towards the end of the film telling him that Endeavour belongs to one of the College Lodges in order to secure the transfer to Castle Gate. Why exactly does he do this; is it purely out of friendship or did he think Endeavour is more likely to pursue the truth about Fancy’s death if he’s stationed there?
SEAN: Six of one, half a dozen of the other. A less isolated Morse could prove to be more malleable.
DAMIAN: Also in PYLON, Endeavour pleads, ‘Look, you’re doing alright. Friends at the Lodge. Going places. You’re on the up. Just let it go.’ but Strange replies with ‘I can’t. I can’t’. Seemingly more than anyone else, why do you think Strange is so haunted by Fancy’s death?
SEAN: First and foremost, Strange cared for George. They were friends. For there to be no justice, no closure, is simply unbearable. His only way to emotionally deal with it is to make sure the culprit pays for what they did.
ENDEAVOUR: Who else knows about this?
STRANGE: So far – just us.
BRIGHT: Dr.deBryn was good enough to notify me and Detective Sergeant Strange first. I think – for the moment at least – such information should be contained amongst former City officers.
ENDEAVOUR: We’re a man shy, then. Aren’t we?
Awkward looks from BRIGHT and STRANGE.
DEGUELLO (S6:E4)
DAMIAN: Albeit only temporarily, do you think the moral downfall of Thursday suggests that all bets are off now and anything is possible for the future of the show – I mean, is there a real sense of not knowing what to expect when you read the scripts for the first time?
SEAN: I think that has always been the case. Narratively, stylistically and tonally the show has always been quite daring. Thursday’s journey is certainly an example of that. Russ has written real people. Real people do unexpected things. I’m always excited to open up a new script and see what trouble everyone has been getting into.
ENDEAVOUR: I met someone. She’s got a kid. A boy. Five years old. It could be – I don’t know – something. (off STRANGE) Why not? Everybody else gets a shot – why should I be any different?
STRANGE: Because you are.
ENDEAVOUR: What if I don’t want to be? Isn’t that what it’s supposed to be about? Something to come home to.
STRANGE: I wouldn’t know. Some day. Maybe.
CONFECTION (S6:E3)
DAMIAN: I thought the characters of Bright and Strange really evolved in series 6 but I wonder if, considering we’re now well into the third and final act of Endeavour, if there’s anything you’d like to explore with Strange before the curtain falls – perhaps get a girlfriend considering he hasn’t been on a proper date since 1966?
SEAN: I’d like to see more of Strange the leader. The authority figure. Too busy for dates!
DAMIAN: I thought the series got a lot darker as it grew towards the end of the decade. Indeed, the fun and playfulness of scenes such as Strange playing the trombone and becoming one half of the odd couple when he shared a flat with Endeavour seem to be sadly long gone. Do you miss these aspects of Strange’s character from the good old days?
SEAN: I feel they are still a part of his character, just below the surface. I imagine the trombone is kept under his desk. For emergencies.
STRANGE: Back to the day-job, then. That was quite nice while it lasted. Bit like the good old days.
ENDEAVOUR: Which were they? Remind me.
PYLON (S6:E1)
DAMIAN: You told me in our first interview, ‘I’d like to think that Strange in the 1960s is very much trying to find himself. He is very sure of where he wants to go in the world but is still unsure of his footing within it.’ How do you see Strange in the 1970s?
SEAN: Harder. Tougher. Self assured. He’s his own man now.
Consoles with winking lights. The HERO of MOON RANGERS – square jawed MAJOR.ROCK RENTON with X1 the ANDROID and COLONEL CRATER, crusty old patriarch.
MAJOR RENTON: If only we could access Damian Michael Barcroft’s website from outer space. I wanted to read his interview with Stephen La Rivière about the making of the ‘Moon Rangers’ sequences for ‘Endeavour’.
Some electronic beeps — X1’s ‘VOICE’.
COLONEL CRATER: What did that box of wires and lights say?
MAJOR RENTON: X1 says if we can beam our signal off the asteroid, we might be able to find Barcroft’s Uniform Resource Locator.
COLONEL CRATER: His URL? Great Scott! It’s a billion to one-shot, but it might just work!
(Not quite as originally written – apologies to Russell Lewis)
CUT TO:
DAMIAN: Okay Steve – right, let’s go! Stephen, you’re a producer, director, writer, actor and, of course, a puppeteer best known for your work relating to Gerry and Sylvia Anderson’s Supermarionation style of filmmaking. However, you were born in the eighties so must have missed most of their really iconic shows?
STEPHEN: If we’re talking original transmission, then I missed all of them. However, there was a HUGE revival in the early 90s – and, indeed, again in the early 2000s. It always surprises me that so many people have forgotten about the revivals – which were in many ways more successful than the original transmissions. The Tracy Island toy was the most sought after Christmas present for children both times. And it was quite a feat – perhaps one only really matched by the likes of Disney. Children were tuning into a show made three decades previously and accepting it as something of their time.
Having said that, I discovered the shows slightly ahead of their revival courtesy of my mother who bought a video of Thunderbirds from the bargain bin at Woolworths because she’d liked it when she was a child. And it seems to have been instant love.
DAMIAN: What shows do you remember watching as a kid that had their first broadcast in the eighties and how did they compare to favourites like Thunderbirds?
STEPHEN: On the basis of pure vanity, I’d like to point out that I’m sufficiently young enough to only have a couple of sketchy memories of the 80s as a whole! My memories of 80s shows were largely on repeat – and again they were shows like Thomas the Tank Engine that had artistic appeal that allowed them to live beyond their original audience. Thomas, incidentally, was produced by an ex-Thunderbirds model maker. Of my contemporary shows in the first half of the 90s… I watched stuff like Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles. Stuff that was entertaining enough at the time but no real longevity. I have nostalgia when I catch a glimpse of stuff like The RaggyDolls etc. But that’s it really. Nostalgia. I wouldn’t watch these shows for enjoyment now – whereas the Gerry and Sylvia shows of the 60s are endlessly watchable.
The early 90s was a golden time to discover great shows of the past. Friday evenings on BBC 2 – Thunderbirds, Stingray, Doctor Who, The Champions, The Man From Uncle. Plus Channel 4 showed The Avengers. In 1996 ITV did a repeat run of Upstairs Downstairs. Lots of kids discovered Doctor Who during this time too – and loved it even though it was in black and white. Great television and films will never die, so long as new audiences are given a chance to see them. That’s the sad thing about Netflix algorithms – it reduces your chance of exposure to stuff you wouldn’t normally look for. Also the idea that ‘modern kids won’t like that’ is a nonsense. Children have no preconceptions at first – they’ll either enjoy something or they won’t. In many ways, they’re less set in their ways than adults. Early exposure is the key though.
DAMIAN: Can you describe your childhood, for example, were there other kids you could share your passion for sci-fi and fantasy with or were you something of an outsider?
STEPHEN: I was an outsider. In more ways than just my interests. Even at the peak of the revival I didn’t know anyone who liked the same things I did. I managed to get one friend briefly into Doctor Who – but I suspect he was as interested in Doctor Who as I was in football during the brief moment I ‘got into’ it. I.E. to have a shared interest. Also, I wasn’t really a sci-fi fan. Probably more of an old television fan. By the age of ten I was as content watching stuff like Upstairs Downstairs or I Claudius – which I believe a certain mutual friend was in – as I was anything sci-fi. My principal loves though were the Supermarionation shows and Doctor Who. My interest in Who has waned over the years, but my Supermarionation love… well. Need I say more? Anyway, the short answer is: no. I didn’t have anyone to share my interests with!
Through Century 21 Films, Stephen co-produced two new documentaries about the stories ‘Four to Doomsday’ and ‘Earthshock’ for the blu-ray release of Peter Davison’s first season of Doctor Who
DAMIAN: Were there certain characters from any of the Anderson productions that you identified with or perhaps aspired to be like?
STEPHEN: Not really. I’ve never really looked for characters who were like me – and my family background and life has been so odd I’d be surprised if I ever saw a character I could directly identify with. Nor have I ever needed it. Television was a great way to find cool people unlike you! Did I aspire to be like a character – yes. I always wanted to be as cool as Scott Tracy. That voice! Thunderbird 1! Unfortunately, some things are out of range. I suppose if I started smoking 50 a day now I might manage to get a voice like Jeff’s.
There’s a message that underpins many of the Supermarionation shows about helping others – and I think that did leave a lasting impression. I was in Japan during the big earthquake in 2011 and I think part of my desire to stay and volunteer was partly driven by that childhood message relayed in almost everything the Andersons made.
DAMIAN: I’d like to talk a little bit about finding an audience or readership and how the internet has opened up so many opportunities. What can you tell me about your first experiences and how these led to the documentaries and books?
STEPHEN: Well, I’m guilty to an extent of piggy-backing on someone else’s audience. The background to my production life really begins with the fact that I had an awful time at school – which culminated in three kids trying to knife me. So I left when I was 15 without any qualifications. And that immediately reduces your options. The great thing though about being an outsider as a child is that it gives you lots of time to watch TV! And so whilst I lack any formal film education, by sheer osmosis I think I learnt a lot about how to make films. DVDs – and consequently DVD extras – were becoming a thing at that time. I found out that Terrahawks was being released on DVD and suggested to the releasing company that they do some interviews. Somehow that led to me making something for them – my first credit. And that led to making more behind the scenes programmes. So my audience was stolen really.
I got a bit disillusioned with production in 2008 so gave it up permanently. I wrote my book Filmed in Supermarionation the same year – and then in 2010 moved to Japan. So the last five years back in the world of film, television and advertising has been a bit of a surprise. I was tempted back on a one-off basis because I was offered the chance to turn Filmed in Supermarionation into a documentary. Which in turn has led into something of a Supermarionation revival when we produced three new episodes of Thunderbirds for the 50th anniversary of the show. And my goal with that was not just to celebrate the past but to bring a new audience to what I believe is an art-form that is both beautiful and bonkers!
DAMIAN: In addition to the old cliché about being in the right place at the right time, to what extent would you agree that there’s usually some sort of kind mentor along the journey that helps with making contacts or offers sage advice?
STEPHEN: The self-made man is a myth. We all get through life with the help – and sometimes hindrance – of others. When I did the Terrahawks DVD extras I was out of my depth really. Kevin Davies – who designed the Terrahawks titles – was by then a documentary maker. He immediately clocked that I could do with some help. But he never humiliated me – just gave me little tips about things I could do. So I owe him a lot. And along the way there have been lots of people who have helped me. Including some who I met because I wanted to interview them. Thunderbirds director David Elliott, playwright Rosemary Anne Sisson, actress Jean Marsh, composer Alexander Faris – people I went to meet once, who then helped me in immeasurable ways. Like everyone else I’d like to believe that I’m completely in control, but I think the most you can hope for in life is to be the captain of a boat in stormy seas. You push in certain directions, but the tempestuous waves of a million different factors – people, circumstances, chemicals in your brain – earthquakes! – take you to places you wouldn’t normally end up.
DAMIAN: Well, Russell Lewis, being a huge fan of the Anderson productions himself, greatly admired your work and told me that he pointed the Endeavour team to you. How did you first hear the news that they wanted you to film the Moon Rangers sequences and what was your reaction?
STEPHEN: I got an e-mail one day from the producer, Deanne Cunningham. ‘I’m the producer of an ITV drama. I am trying to contact Stephen La Rivière about an episode we are currently planning involving supermarionation style puppetry. It would be great to speak to you about this if you have the time.’
I can’t imagine not having the time for something like this!
It was very exciting. The life of a freelancer is so often waiting for the e-mail or letter that will start a new adventure. A couple of days passed before I found out what it was about – during which time I’d resigned myself to the fact that maybe someone else had got the job. Not that we have any competitors as such as it’s such a specialised field, but the thought is always there.
When I found out and read the script I was very excited, but also worried. Linking up with another crew can produce problems. We worked on an advert for the Halifax in 2016 and I made the error of allowing them to choose the crew who would work under our advice. The crew were perfectly accomplished – but they’d never made anything like this before. The original Supermarionation crew were very clever. And it’s very difficult to film these puppets and models if you don’t know all the tricks that were used by the original Century 21 Films team. The Halifax crew – not used to practical miniature work – couldn’t understand why they weren’t getting the right results with their usual techniques and consequently it was a very stressful experience. So I was worried about a repeat of that experience.
And so as to rob this story of any tension and drama – Endeavour was the best experience possible. Just wonderful people to work with.
DAMIAN: So, you’ve got the job. Can you take me through the process of how you prepared the Moon Rangers sequences including the design of the characters, their costumes, sets and vehicles?
STEPHEN: We all met in London for an initial meeting and discussed ideas and approaches. I think to begin with both sides preferred to have greater control – which is completely natural. Production is difficult, stressful and costly and you want to get people you can rely on. So naturally they favoured as many of their own crew and I favoured as many of mine. What we ended up with though was a collaboration that – I think – worked out perfectly. My initial preference was that we should build the main set as the scale is really important, but understandably Paul Cripps [production designer] wanted to do that. And taking on board our advice I think he came up with something fantastic. It looks great on camera, whilst having the right sort of aesthetic.
On the flip side, Paul originally planned to do the puppets, but it made more sense for us to build them as our puppet makers are the experts in this particular style of marionette and we wanted to ensure everything worked as we needed. Though, having said that, we still managed to have a mechanical malfunction on the day that nearly drove me to a nervous breakdown. Which is something else I’d like to praise the Endeavour team for. I warned them that these puppets are very temperamental and reshoot time would be essential if needed. All of that was taken into consideration – which makes the whole experience so much easier.
So Paul designed the main puppet set – which matched aesthetically what I really wanted to go for. Even though the episode was set in 1969, I felt that Russell has perfectly caught in the dialogue the essence of Fireball XL5 and Stingray – which had that sort of weird late 50s / early 60s hybrid look.
Rock Renton and below: Steve Zodiac (Fireball XL5), Troy Tempest (Stingray) and Scott Tracy (Thunderbirds)
Paul also gave us sketches as to how he envisaged the characters. Rock Renton was made specially for the show by top sculptor Stephen Mansfield who sculpts all our new characters. Stephen took Paul’s design as a starting point and then translated that into the pre-set proportions of a Supermarionation puppet whilst adding a few influences from the original characters. I was really happy with the look of Rock Renton – he seemed to embody Steve Zodiac, Troy Tempest and Scott Tracy somehow. Once the sculpt was done and approved puppet maker Barry Davies built the puppet and installed all the mechanisms.
X1
The X1 Robot was again built following Paul’s initial design – but with slight changes that occurred as a result of using ordinary household objects. The head, for instance, is a paint pot! He was built by our effects team of Toby Chamberlain and Hilton Fitzsimmons and operated by Elliot Pavelin.
Luna Colonel Crater
Luna and Colonel Crater followed Paul’s ideas more by chance than design in that we already had puppets that looked right. Paul wanted Colonel Crater to look like Morse creator Colin Dexter. We agreed that an existing puppet – who we’d had built for the new Thunderbirds episodes we’d made in 2015 – again sculpted by Stephen Mansfield – looked the part. Because of the pre-determined proportions of the earlier Supermarionation puppets, you can never really do an exact copy – so you aim to capture the essence. And the puppet previously known as Dawkins seemed just right for the job.
Luna was a previously unused puppet – sculpted for (and deleted from) the Halifax advert by Marina and Lady Penelope creator Mary Turner. Given Luna is an homage to Marina it seemed almost serendipitous that we could provide a puppet sculpted by the same person.
Paul also included some costume sketches. The costumes were made by our costume lady, Liz Comstock-Smith. She followed Paul’s design for the main uniform, whilst the final look of Luna was influenced by some rather fabulous flowing fabric Liz found. Supermarionation is a very organic process – whatever you set out to do morphs across the different elements of production. Not just because of the creative whims of the team – but because the puppets are so specific in what they require. In the case of the costumes, the fabric and construction has to be perfect to allow the puppet to move freely.
On the special effects front, the rocket was kit-bashed by Hilton Fitzsimmons who built two models – just in case we needed to blow up two. Paul arranged the staging and drapes needed for the SFX shots – and had some rather nice moon craters built. The stage was dressed with sand for the drama shots – but we substituted that for other materials when it came to the effects shot itself for a better effect.
We were on set for a week in total. The drama sequences were shot on the Wednesday and Thursday – and then we took over the stage to shoot Moon Rangers. Both puppet and model sequences were shot on a vintage Mitchell on 35mm film by Boyd Skinner our expert DOP who knows all of the lighting and lensing requirements. Malcolm Smith came into do the pyrotechnics (which were very loud). Again, Malcolm is an expert in producing the right sort of explosions that work in miniature. He also has to plan out the timing of each shot precisely because we shoot at high speed. So a 5 second detonation is in fact only 1 second in real life.
The model shots were done in sections. The landing and initial detonation, the collapse, and then various shots of detonation – which had to culminated in the foam of the extinguisher in order to take us back into the main drama. I was very conscious that we were an elaborate, but small part of a big drama and tried to make sure as much as possible that our bits would integrate into the main action.
I can’t stress enough how much of a genuine collaborative effort this was. We were all in constant touch checking with each other that we were getting what we wanted. From my side, I wanted to be providing the show with what its production team wanted. From their side, they were respectful of making sure that I got the things I needed to make sure we ended up with an authentic looking, affectionate homage – not a badly made parody that cheapened the original shows.
I hope that what we ended up with is a true marriage between Russell’s written vision, Shaun’s directorial vision, Paul’s design vision and my vision of how to do new Supermarionation work that doesn’t harm the original shows, but brings a new audience. And given the reaction online – I think we succeeded. In the year since Apollo went out, we’ve been inundated with requests not just to bring Thunderbirds back, but to do full series of Moon Rangers!
Stephen with David Elliott and Mary Turner above them
DAMIAN: How did puppeteer Mary Turner and director David Elliott who both worked on the original Thunderbirds become involved?
STEPHEN: I’ve known Mary and David for the best part of 20 years – I first met them as a young fan wanting to know how the shows were made. Going to Mary for puppeteering seemed natural – not just because she was there, but because she understands television puppeteering. It needs to be subtle as the camera amplifies everything. She was joined by Géraldine Donaldson as the supervisor (she ensures that all the puppets are prepared, dressed, styled and working) and Elliot Pavelin – who worked as a lip-sync operator and puppeteer. Although to be honest we all do a bit of everything really. My co-producer Andrew T. Smith not only looks after the running of the whole operation, but puppeteers, lip-sync operates, sorts out camera problems. We all have to be all rounders!
As for David when we began production on the three anniversary specials of Thunderbirds, he asked if he could direct one. It hadn’t occurred me to ask because it’s a huge strain and he was 84. I hesitantly agreed and… he sat down in the chair and five decades fell away. It was like he’d never been away. He did some amazing work for us.
For Endeavour, I wanted to puppeteer too, and so it made sense to have David on set too. Originally it was to have a second pair of eyes focussed just on the action to make sure we were getting everything – but he’s so full of good ideas it can’t help but be a collaboration. So even though I got sole credit, it was actually both of us – some shots are his, some are mine. One of the shots was actually the idea of my co-producer, Andrew T. Smith. It really is a very collaborative process. If someone’s got a good idea we use it!
It wasn’t just David and Mary – David Graham, the voice of Parker, provided (uncredited) the voice of Colonel Crater. Mary and David Elliott are in their 80s, and David Graham is in his 90s – so I think I might have the oldest working film crew out there!
The dialogue was recorded at Hackenbacker in London. Nigel Heath gave us a fantastic 60s microphone set-up so we could get the authentic sound. Justin T. Lee provided – again uncredited – the Scott Tracy-esque voice of Rock Renton.
DAMIAN: What was Shaun Evans like to work with as an actor and a director?
STEPHEN: As I said earlier on, one of my great concerns about this was having a repeat of the Halifax experience – trying to work through another director. But Shaun said that I should direct the Moon Rangers bit as it was a specialised form of filmmaking. So my level of respect for him is huge. Not every filmmaker has the lack of ego to be able to say, ‘Actually, it would be better if we let this person do this bit’.
That’s not to say Shaun had no involvement – everything done was to service his show. But ultimately, this was one long special effects sequence involving specialised knowledge and it was fantastic that we were allowed to get on and do the things we needed to do.
A specialised sequence like this – in the middle of a big production with its down demands – could have been a nightmare to get right. But it was just a pleasure. Nearly two years on, I’m still surprised to be able to say that as it’s so unusual!
DAMIAN: Who gave the best performance – the puppets or the human actors?
STEPHEN: Given that Rock Renton broke down – mechanically, rather than mentally – for three hours on the shoot day, I’d say the actors. Definitely more reliable. Though, like many temperamental stars, I don’t think any of Rock’s problems showed up on screen.
I would like to highlight one puppet performance though that I loved – Colonel Crater collapsing. Mary Turner operated Crater and her comic timing reduced everyone to fits of laughter. Which on a stressful, complicated day is something we all needed!
DAMIAN: Russ visited the studios at Twickenham for two days and said that they were amongst the happiest he’s ever spent on the show. However, from your perspective, I wonder if having the writer there watching you perform was a little nerve-racking?
STEPHEN: I think many creatives suffer from Impostor Syndrome. The idea that you shouldn’t be there. So on that basis, I like keeping everyone away so I have time to fix the problems before anyone notices. And boy – do the puppets come with lots of problems. Paul Cripps suddenly wandered onto the set unexpectedly when we were having problems with Renton – and I wanted to die from shame. I mean, I know the puppets come with these problems – they either work beautifully, or they’re bastards. Even Gerry used to call them ‘little bastards’. But it worries me that to people who don’t do this on a daily basis that they think it’s incompetence, rather than the nature of this type of fiddly filmmaking.
I was delighted Russell could come down. Not least so I could express my admiration for the script which I think is genuinely very clever. In one minute it totally distills the essence of those shows. And it’s enormously quotable. Amongst my crew it’s easily the production we reference the most.
DAMIAN: You know, I think Russ actually found the experience very moving and not just because he’s a fan of Stingray, Thunderbirds and the other Anderson shows, but he told me that watching you work reminded him of when he was a kid making 8mm stop-motion films with Action Men. Essentially, as an artist, would you agree that you’re not only operating the puppets, but also gently holding people’s childhoods in your hands?
STEPHEN: Yes! Absolutely. And I’m very conscious of that in everything we do. We’re playing in a toy-box that deserves respect. My only intention with everything we do is that we tell the audience – new and old – that these shows were fantastic. Of everything we’ve done, I think Moon Rangers has done the most to promote that idea. We have big plans for Supermarionation – and Moon Rangers has really helped us on that path.
DAMIAN: Was it your idea for Russ to have the little cameo?
STEPHEN: Actually, I think it was Géraldine’s idea – our puppetry supervisor. The hand insert wasn’t in the script – but the script made quite a bit about the human sized props. So I thought it’d be fun to do a human hand sequence not least because everyone remembers them. But also, it would serve the main drama plot. As we were preparing for the shot Géraldine said, ‘Wouldn’t it be a nice idea to give Russ a cameo?’ So she went away and made a sleeve for him out of a bit of the remaining puppet costume material and he came onto the set to play Rock Renton. It’s a lovely touch. We were also able to film a bit of Russell on set with the puppets as we were at the end of the reel – hopefully a nice memento for him of the day.
Thinking about that day I feel so warm towards the experience. That’s the magic of these puppets – despite the frustrations of production – there is just a magic of stepping onto those sets and seeing the characters live.
DAMIAN: What’s next for you and Century 21?
STEPHEN: Stand by for action… We’ll be back. We just can’t say anything about it yet!
DAMIAN: Stephen, thank you very much indeed.
STEPHEN: No, thank you. I’m not blind to the fact we were 1 minute of a much-loved series. But as I’ve said to everyone else until their eyes glaze over, I loved the whole thing. Normally old work makes you wince – but I’m hugely proud of my tiny part in Endeavour.
INT. VENDING MACHINE AREA/NEW COWLEY POLICE STATION
BRIGHT at his solitary repast – nosing through a newspaper with an APOLLO HEADLINE. THURSDAY arrives.
THURSDAY: Giving the canteen a miss today, sir?
BRIGHT: I was just… uh… (re the Apollo headline) Extraordinary thing.
THURSDAY: Yes, it is. Hell of a thing. Brave as you like. I was a boy when Alcock and Brown crossed the Atlantic. Everybody said that couldn’t be done. Fifty years on, and it’s the moon.
BRIGHT: ‘Man’s reach’, Thursday.
DAMIAN: Russ, what do you remember of July 1969?
RUSS: My chief recollection is peering at a black and white TV and trying to make sense of the images thereon. Was the touchdown beamed back live – or is my mind playing tricks? The pictures were quite difficult to process for my young mind. Quite abstract. Oblique views of the lunar surface.
But there was a great air of excitement about it all. My maternal grandmother was as old as the century, and it’s mad to think her life encompassed both the Wright Brothers first powered flight, and then – sixty-six years later – she was still alive to watch men walk on the moon. Quite staggering. Having seen Alan Tracy do his thing in Thunderbird 3, one might have been a bit blasé about it, assuming that – ‘well, of course, the moon is nothing special. Thunderbird 3 goes there all the time.’
E/I. THE MOON/SOUNDSTAGE/HEAVISIDE STUDIOS
The surface of the moon. Pockmarked with craters. Buzz Aldrin’s ‘Magnificent desolation.’ The blast of deceleration rockets – and a spaceship descends to the surface.
The space-ship crashes in a tremendous explosion… A moment – and a couple of STAGEHANDS enter frame with fire extinguishers to put out the flames… WIDE – and we see the MOON is a model set.
DAMIAN: The second film of series 6, APOLLO, was something of a love letter to Gerry Anderson and the Supermarionation style of filmmaking. Can you tell me what shows like Thunderbirds and Stingray meant to you as a child?
RUSS: I guess, along with the films of Ray Harryhausen, they furnished my imagination. I would have watched them in black and white, I suppose – first time round. Like most of the country, not having a colour TV. But, yes, I was completely in thrall to the worlds created in each of those shows.
DAMIAN: Also, some of the puppets such as Lady Penelope and Marina were strangely alluring to young boys weren’t they?
RUSS: Marina, perhaps. Lady Penelope… not so much. As a child I found her rhotacism a bit off-putting. I was fascinated by the imagery in the end credits of Stingray – across the “Marina” theme. Exquisitely shot. These felt like images that could have come from a big budget, high production value movie. I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it before, but the mood and imagery for Pulp’s Hardcore video has been a bit of a touchstone across the last couple of Series — which in turn took its inspiration from a coffee table book called Still Life edited by Diane Keaton (yup!) and Marvin Heiferman. I’ve got a pretty battered copy, but it’s filled with stills and publicity shots from Hollywood movies between 1940 and ‘69. There’s something very strange and staged about those shots – oddly lifeless and artificial — and often sinister, in a kind of David Lynch/Twin Peaks way. There’s something about the kind of world that they’re trying to depict which rings utterly hollow. They’re what the mind of someone who has lived an unsophisticated life imagines the sophisticated life to be. Do you know what I mean? It’s like what children imagine a King’s life to be. Ice cream for breakfast, lunch and supper, delivered on silver salvers by periwigged flunkies in buckled shoes – illustrated by Quentin Blake.
And… this does get back to Marina and Lady Penelope, I promise you… In the UK, there was that same brittle Soho glamour abroad after the war. Telephone accents. Ruth Ellis. It’s there in Betjeman’s Song of a Nightclub Proprietress — that piss elegance that pretends to something it isn’t. Del Boy Trotter’s ‘Bonnet de douche’. That’s probably a bit unfair on Del Boy – but Hyacinth Bucket is close to the mark. And I think that’s certainly true of Lady Penelope. It’s a suburban imagining of the aristocracy. Ha! You remember that scene with Jane Fonda in Klute where she goes and monologues the fantasy of the old gentleman in the Garment Factory. He’s come from the old country, and the fantasy is all about Fonda’s trip to the gambling tables of Monte Carlo, it’s all dripping with Euro decadence and the ‘pagan’ feelings stirred in her by some older man in the casino. And it’s a fantastic scene – but again, it’s that level of pretence. It’s no accident Lady Penelope ends up in Monte in The Man from MI.5. And that’s there in the Marina montage as well. Candles melting in a Chianti bottle. A vision of glamour that most of us could only dream about in the UK. But it was bogus. Ersatz. Rank Charm – as they say.
DAMIAN: You visited filming at Twickenham studios for a couple of days and I believe the first was with Shaun directing the human actors. You’ve obviously known Shaun for a long time now but what he is like as a director?
RUSS: Thorough. Prepared.
DAMIAN: Did the two of you have any significant creative differences on this film?
RUSS: Not that I recall, specifically. But what goes on tour…
DAMIAN: Shaun’s first foray into directing was a couple of years ago now, do you think he always had ambitions to direct an episode of Endeavour and why do you think he wanted to direct this particular film?
RUSS: Well – he didn’t want to open the batting – first time out, and the only film available to him to direct was the second in the run.
DAMIAN: Have you ever thought of having a go behind the camera?
RUSS: I’m already insufferable enough.
DAMIAN: Not you, sir. The second day of filming at Twickenham involved the puppet sequences. Now, I’ve often tried to get you to pick a favourite child and you always refuse. However, you must have something of a special soft spot for this film?
RUSS: I enjoyed the puppets very much. Getting up close and personal with Stephen La Rivière’s wonders. His team is fantastic, and I could happily spend the rest of my days doing nothing but working with them. What I adored was that it took me back to making my own 8mm stop-motion films as a kid. Then – Action Men were my cast, brilliantly poseable for animation – but it was in essence ‘bringing one’s toys to life.’ And there was an element of that with the puppets and the vehicles. Obviously, compared to the budget they’d had on the commercials they’d done, we could offer nothing like the same resources — but, clearly, when they’d been doing their Thunderbirds at 50 films, I don’t think they were awash with money, which brings me to my point — they have retained a very healthy sense of make do and mend, and most importantly, the only thing that matters is what’s in the frame. Does it tick all the rules boxes? No. Does it work? Does it look fantastic? Absolutely. That chimed very happily with my approach to making things. I adore sleight of hand. The movie and TV magic. What you thought you saw, you did not see.
He and they have such a genuine reverence for the original way of doing things, and a touching affection for those who broke that ground first time around… Having David Elliot and Mary Turner on the floor – and seeing Mary manipulating the puppets from the ‘Bridge’ over the set, as she had done for Anderson nearly sixty years ago… For those of us to whom such a moment might mean something… It was extraordinarily moving.
DAMIAN: Is this why you chose this film to make your first and only onscreen appearance?
RUSS: First do no harm. It was Stephen’s idea. And it kind of fed back into the make do and mend approach. At first, I think, we’d built the cut to the human hand into the story – and explained it in dialogue as part of the plot. There was a lot more about guns and blanks and live rounds early on, as a way of explaining why more than one person would have tested positive for firearms residue. But there we are. I was always very conscious as a kid of the cut to the live human hand pulling a lever or pushing a switch – and I think I wrote about that in the stage directions. Geraldine – Stephen’s colleague at Century 21 Films – had an offcut of material left over from Renton and Crater’s costumes – literally, a fragment of cloth, perhaps with a bit of braiding, was it? – and I was sewn into that to create a bit of cuff. Just enough to deceive. The ONLY thing that matters is what’s in frame. And away I went. A career in hand modelling beckons… And not a moment too soon.
DAMIAN: Can you describe the atmosphere on set with Stephen La Rivière and Century 21 working their magic?
RUSS: Well, as I think I’ve mentioned, it meant a lot. To be on the floor with Stephen and his team, and of course David and Mary. Really was amongst the happiest days I’ve spent on the show. That the shoot took place during the heatwave merely added to the fun of it. The studio – with the lights blazing – was stifling. We were the Alec Guinness Bridge on the River Kwai ‘Sweatbox’ Re-Enactment Society. As the late, great Neil Innes said when I saw him play at the Marquee some forty years ago, ‘The sweat’s running down the cheeks of my arse like juice from a rhubarb tart.’ But if I could spend the rest of my days doing that… it would be no contest.
DAMIAN: You mention Barry Gray’s music in the script and his contribution to the Anderson productions can’t be overstated. Any particular favourite themes or songs?
RUSS: Stingray is sensational. And I’m very fond of Joe 90. The organ line is marvellous. I also like the vocal version of Captain Scarlet by The Spectrum – who supposedly performed it (or mimed to it) on The Golden Shot. I’d love to know if there was any truth in that. The vocalist to my ear always sounds like Ray Brooks – who narrated Mister Benn. Marina is a stone cold classic. The mighty Thunderbirds theme. But with a lot of these, it’s the incidental music that haunts the mind. Some of the stuff on The Uninvited – the strange Thunderbirds story set around a pyramid. Madly, I always feel like I catch echoes of it in some of the arrangements in The Specials early work — Ghost Town in particular – those brass stabs, and the flute figure always sound very Thunderbirds to my ears. Barry Gray’s music did so much of the heavy lifting in terms of mood and scene setting. In much the same way that our own Barry – and now, of course, Matt Slater – bring so much to Endeavour. Their music has saved our blushed more times than I can remember.
DAMIAN: Was it the idea to incorporate the Apollo 11 moon landing or the Supermarionation aspects of the story that came first?
RUSS: Oh – the Moon Landing. It would have been a natural exit point for the series as a whole – as the pinnacle of human achievement.
INT. SOUNDSTAGE/HEAVISIDE STUDIOS
A puppet Moonbase. Consoles with winking lights. The HERO of MOON RANGERS – square jawed MAJOR.ROCK RENTON in a scene with X1 the ANDROID (a ROBOT), LUNARA – one of the Moon People; and COLONEL CRATER, crusty old patriarch.
COLONEL CRATER: Barbara’s not only my daughter, Major, but she’s also a renowned Astro-Physicist in her own right.
MAJOR RENTON: I warned her not to go, Colonel. Now, she’s out there somewhere on the dark side, with only thirty minutes of oxygen left.
COLONEL CRATER: Don’t blame yourself, Rock. She was determined to get that space-flu vaccine through to the miners at Station X19…
DAMIAN: Tell me about creating these characters, the choice of names and if you needed to do much research or does hokey dialogue just come naturally?
RUSS: They were kind of Stingray-ish, really, weren’t they? Alliterative for Troy Tempest/Rock Renton. The name Renton had stuck in my head for fifty years — I think there was a character called Rod Renton in either Secret of Zarb or The Terror of Tiba – these little books I had when I was a kid. Spitfire Books. I’m not sure if they were for younger readers or just pulpy – but they were all genres… cowboy, war, adventure… and the pair in question were sort of secret agenty. The kind of story where each of the buddy-buddy heroes had alliterative names.
DAMIAN: Note the book logo – Tigers were everywhere in the 60s.RUSS: I think the chap in the fez and robes on the cover fed into stage directions for supporting artists at Bixby’s party in RIDE. We just added the horse-hair fly-swatter. A shilling! Money well spent.
And Crater was a version of Commander Shore from Stingray. What we were reaching for with Moon Rangers though was a show that had already passed its sell-by date. Anderson had moved away – with Captain Scarlet – from the larger headed marionettes of the earlier productions to more properly proportioned puppets. And it was important for us that our studio – Heaviside – was still flying the old flag – that it was slipping behind the times. I know Stephen La Rivière has much greater affection for the Stingray/Thunderbirds era puppets. And I do see his point. While Scarlet and Joe 90 were much more realistically proportioned, it was at a cost of what could be done. The puppets in those two shows ‘walk’ or move far less than those in Thunderbirds and Stingray. You’ve got Lieutenant Green on his slidey chair – and Colonel White behind his rotating desk. They’re much more static. It’s a choice. You feel the later shows, including The Secret Service from 69 – which was half live action, half puppetry – were consciously trying to shake off their origins. I liked the darkness of Scarlet a lot, and I’d dearly love to find a way to deliver a version of it — but the artistry and scale of Stingray, together with the hopeful message of Thunderbirds, really makes them the yardstick, and what people tend to think of when they think of Century 21. The particular gait of the puppets, which has been providing comedians with much mileage for over half a century. News recently came through of the death of Alan Patillo at the age of 90. Writer and director for many of Anderson’s shows – his work was quite remarkable. In tribute, Stephen tweeted a link to the climax of The Perils of Penelope. Really — it’s a masterclass in suspense. Absolutely brilliant. A sequence of which Hitchcock or Spielberg would be proud.
DAMIAN: Jeff Slayton, CEO of the fictional Heaviside studios, describes Moon Rangers as a sort of ‘Bonanza in space’ which, of course, reminded me of Star Trek. Now, you often mention the Prime Directive whenever I ask a question regarding Endeavour’s past – typically with reference to Susan Fallon. I obviously understand that the Prime Directive in Star Trek means that Starfleet personnel are forbidden from interfering with the natural development of alien civilisations but can you clarify what is meant when you use it in reference to the Morse universe?
RUSS: It’s [also] Doc Brown’s warning to Marty, isn’t it? We can’t do anything in the past which might change the future.
DAMIAN: Will Susan Fallon ever appear in Endeavour?
RUSS: Well, she sort of already has. She is standing in the group of mourners at her father’s funeral. We just didn’t pick her out or have her see Endeavour, as it felt that might undermine what they have to say to each other in Dead on Time.
LAZARETTO (S4:E3)
DAMIAN: Of course, APOLLO wasn’t all puppets and explosions, and although we’ll discuss some of the key moments regarding Endeavour and Thursday when we conclude our discussion on the themes of alienation, change, guilt and paranoia next time, I wanted to highlight two of my favourite scenes in this script. The first continues from where we began earlier at the vending machine:
THURSDAY: All well, sir?
BRIGHT: A sobering thing to discover so late in life that one is considered a fool.
THURSDAY: Not you, sir.
BRIGHT: Oh, yes. I’m under no illusion. I am a figure of ridicule. To be openly mocked and scorned. (off THURSDAY) This Pelican! — is an albatross around my neck. Someone even mentioned it to Mrs.Bright at Canasta the other evening. People laugh at me behind my back, and even to my face.
THURSDAY: More fool them. Seems to me we’re in the business of keeping the Queen’s Peace and preserving life and limb. This campaign of yours – you’ll probably never know how many lives you’ve saved. Hundreds. Thousands, maybe – by the time it’s done.
BRIGHT: I’ve always been able to rely on you. Well — I must meet a representation from the Oxford traders. Up in arms over parking restrictions.
BRIGHT goes. THURSDAY watches after him.
DAMIAN: Wonderfully played by both actors but Anton’s pause after ‘I’ve always been able to rely on you’ and the poignant look on his face was so moving and beautiful. Now, correct me if I’m wrong but this is the sort of scene, maybe because it doesn’t involve Endeavour or drive the mystery plot forward, that might easily have been deleted in the earlier days of the show. However, I’m confused as to why the following brilliant “best not go there…” scene which does feature Endeavour was not filmed in its entirety and much of the really insightful dialogue not included. Was this simply because of our old enemy screentime or a creative difference perhaps?
INT. CID/NEW COWLEY POLICE STATION
THURSDAY and BOX in BOX’s office. ENDEAVOUR and JOAN keeping an eye on FLORA and MATTHEW — sister helping her brother with his drawing on a blotter. JOAN at the window – eye on the glimpse of moon in the darkened sky.
JOAN: Mad to think there’s people up there. Right now. That someone could have looked out of the window like this and thought – ‘Right. We’re going there.’
ENDEAVOUR: “This was the prized, the desirable sight…” (off JOAN) Sorry. Being clever again. It’s always occupied the human imagination. Understandable, I suppose. But strange, all the same.
JOAN: Strange?
ENDEAVOUR: That something so far away and seemingly out of reach could bear so great an influence on one’s life. Even when you can’t see it. It’s still there. (best not go there…)
RUSS: It was shot. Shaun didn’t care for it and asked me to write another scene – which is the one that was broadcast.
DAMIAN: Finally, what can you tell us about tonight’s film, RAGA?
RUSS: The 1970 General Election is a backdrop. All in Wrestling has a part to play. Greeks Bearing Gifts had a notional influence upon it. It features an Indian restaurant, so probably best avoided by those who bleat about ‘Political correctness gone mad.’
DAMIAN: Just one more thing; you’re having tea with a friend and there are two cakes left on the plate – a large one of a kind you very much like, and a smaller, dry looking one. Which do you choose?
‘I’m afraid I see little of anyone in Traffic, but you’re remembered – often. All my old Cowley gang. You, Inspector Thursday, Sergeant. Strange. Constable Trewlove. And young Fancy, of course. Absent friends. Not yet a year, and already our City days seem a lifetime ago. But there we are. A new decade just around the corner. Well, I must get on.’
Bright to Endeavour from the shooting script of CONFECTION (S6:E3)
DAMIAN: Recalling our very first round of interviews back when we were both still in shorts, I remembered you told me that Bright was ‘a man even more out of time than most in the 1960s’. Indeed, the same might also be said of Thursday, so I’m wondering how on earth the two of them are going to survive the 1970s?
RUSS: There is of course nothing to say that they will. But I think you’re asking about cultural and societal changes. Hot pants. Punk. The mind boggles. There was a little bit of Sir Robert Mark, I think, underpinning the creation of Bright. ‘If you drove like that, you’d deserve to be called…’ And one wonders what he might have made of a Day-Glo Mohican (Mohawk – for our friends across the Big Water) and bondage trousers. Gobbing. I think Thursday might wonder if such was what he fought a war for. The answer – of course – is that such is EXACTLY what he fought a war for. Perhaps, in truth, they’d have taken it all in their sagacious stride. From their end of the telescope – I can tell you – that one tends not to sweat the small stuff. And most things are filed under small stuff.
EXT. STREET – DAY 1
A couple of KIDDIES skip home from school. Off: the bingly-boingly tune of an ICE CREAM VAN. Kids stop and react to see:
Across two streets – at right angles — an ICE CREAM VAN parked up. The KIDDIES come to the kerb between parked cars. Traffic races past. As they start to cross — a gentle hand comes down on a shoulder…
BRIGHT: (Off-screen) Stop!
KIDDIES look to find BRIGHT beside them.
BRIGHT: (Cont’d) Wait a minute. Not so fast. That isn’t how you cross the road. If you step out here you could get badly hurt – or worse. Come along. Come with me.
DAMIAN: The first film of the last series, PYLON, opens – unusually – with Bright and your storylines for series 6 offered the opportunity for Anton Lesser to explore his character in many new dramatic ways. Was there a particular motivation on your part to make series 6 the year for Bright to shine?
RUSS: Well, I’d say Bright always shone. My admiration for Anton Lesser – as an artist and as a human being – knows no bounds. You know of old that his history is something I’ve been trying to include for several series. We got a hint of it with Dulcie, I think, at the end of series 5. A lot of people had been asking about the much mentioned Mrs. Bright, and wondered whether she was going to be another Mrs. Mainwaring or ‘Er Indoors. So it was lovely to meet her at last – albeit we were joining them at a moment of crisis.
DAMIAN: Bright’s Public Information Film is rather tame in comparison but do you remember how truly terrifying some of the actual ones made in the late 60s and early 70s were?
RUSS: I have several DVDs of Public Information Films — and half remember shooting one as a kid. But, yes, there were some terrifically sinister ‘Stranger Danger’ ones. Mummy Says – cut out animation pieces. Children’s artwork cut up and animated – with a child’s voice over. A sort of precursor to the much sampled ‘Charley Says…’ series. I think we all went around in the 60s and 70s in more or less a permanent background state of trauma and anxiety lest ‘a man’ offer us sweets or a ride in his car to a private viewing of some puppies. If said viewing took place adjacent to OPEN WATER or… a PYLON!!!!! Well… there you are. The Pelicon/Pelican crossing PIF was also animated. So we added Bright, a pelican and a catchphrase. Speaking of which… ‘Clunk-Click’ I suppose covered all bases, insofar as you had a Road Safety PIF presented by an absolute danger to livestock.
BRIGHT: (Cont’d) There might not be a police officer or lollipop lady to help you cross the road, so always find a safe place to cross at a designated pedestrian crossing. And remember! “If the Pelican can – then so can you!”
BRIGHT salutes. Musical sting – “If the Pelican can, then so can you!”
DIRECTOR: (Off-screen) And… cut.
Off CAMERA – a Public Information Film Crew about its business. A few BYSTANDERS watching the fun. ‘Checking the Gate’ &c. The PELICAN WRANGLER moves in with a bucket of fish. BRIGHT – the star of the show – ignored.
BRIGHT: (to the DIRECTOR) Was that alright? You know, I’m not sure I would salute…
DIRECTOR: (Off-screen) It’s in the script.
DAMIAN: It’s in the script! – if only that was the policy of all directors. This lovely end to the original opening scene with Bright was cut but was there ever a concern as to what extent a character of such dignity and respect should be humiliated by his demotion?
RUSS: No. Not in the slightest. As you say – knowing quite how much dignity and his place in the world meant to Bright – to cast him down from a high place into something quite else was integral to the design. He was hurt and humiliated and it hurt us to see him brought so low.
DAMIAN: Is Shaun Evans a ‘It’s in the script’ kind of director’?
RUSS: Well – it’s funny isn’t it… A scene that ends with ‘It’s in the script’ – having that bit cut out in the edit. If I remember, Damien Timmer [executive producer and joint-managing director of the production company, Mammoth Screen] felt it was too arch and knowing. So — no director was responsible for that particular dropped stitch. We’ve been very well served by our directors, amongst whom I’d number Shaun – and I’m enormously grateful to them for all they bring to the party. I’d also refer you back to the two signs on my office wall — ‘Television is a collaborative medium’ and ‘Collaborators will be shot!’
EXT. ROAD/SERGEANT’S HOUSE/WOODSTOCK POLICE OUTPOST – DAY 2
A high, lonely stretch of road. Summer fields. Distant PYLONS. A BLACK ZEPHYR comes into view. It slows and pulls off the road outside a SERGEANT’S HOUSE – the only building for miles. A PANDA car parked outside.
CUT TO:
INT. FRONT OFFICE/WOODSTOCK POLICE OUTPOST
Heat gone from the day. The soft long light of a late summer’s evening falls on a patch of wall spotted with POLICE ‘PUBLIC INFORMATION’ POSTERS – bathing all in gold and lime…
…Double doors give on to a narrow vestibule/hall – a hard bench against a wall. Facing the open doors – a drop-leaf counter beyond which, the suggestion of a back room, from whence OPERATIC MUSIC floods the building.
ANGLE – SERVICE BELL on the counter. Beyond – out of focus – a UNIFORM sits with his back towards us, typing at a desk.
A hand comes down on the Service bell.
VISITOR: (Off-screen) Shop!
UNIFORM rises – comes to the counter, and we recognise – ENDEAVOUR in full Thames Valley blues – three stripes on his sleeve. And sporting a moustache. His visitor – STRANGE – a touch of Brylcreem. Three-piece suit. Chelsea Boots.
STRANGE: This is where you’ve been keeping yourself, is it?
ENDEAVOUR’S not going to make it easy. A distance has fallen between them. Things unsaid, and for too long.
DAMIAN: Alienation, change, guilt and paranoia. These are the words that I would use to describe series 6. We’ll perhaps come to some of the others later, but let’s discuss change for now. It’s 1st July, 1969 and, as scripted, you describe a demolition scene complete with wrecking ball and three new high-rise tower-blocks in various stages of completion beyond. Later, Thursday is about to light his pipe but changes his mind and you end the description of this scene simply with the words ‘Out with the old.’
INT. THURSDAY’S OFFICE/CID/POLICE STATION – DAY 9
THURSDAY in his office — filling his pipe. As he goes to light it… He looks across the way to BOX’s office – wherein; BOX and JAGO laughing it up – clinking drinks.
THURSDAY shakes out the match – lays his pipe aside. Out with the old.
Now, I appreciate the more obvious elements such as the fact that we are in a new police station and find many of the characters in new positions, but I also wondered to what extent series 6 might be seen as the beginning of the final act of Endeavour while also memorialising a bygone age of innocence?
RUSS: Yes, I think that’s right. George Fancy – the death of a young colleague – was to my mind the end of the innocence. They’d all taken their knocks – one way or another – and bore them each alone. One can bear one’s own pain — because whatever the level of personal discomfort – emotional or physical – one knows it’s finite, typically. But something like George… That’s something none of them can fix. That’s with them now. Always.
INT. COACH (TRAVELLING) – DAY…
ENDEAVOUR’s POV: through breaks in the ragged hedgeline, distant glimpses of that city of cupola and aquatint…
ENDEAVOUR stares out of the window. The music swells, soaring cor anglais in excelsis…
EXT. OXFORD – DAY
Towers and spires float above the treeline. An aching, giddying, tremulous beauty. Eden before the fall.
Excerpts from First Bus to Woodstock (Shooting draft)
DAMIAN: Eden beforethe fall. You have created such a rich and rounded world that I almost find it hard to imagine a time when there was only Inspector Morse and Lewis. However, recalling one beautiful day back in January 2012, when a young and sanguine Morse was first introduced to the world, I have a sense that both he and the show were a lot more optimistic in 1965 than 1969. Given some of the more recent storylines – for example, series 5 which Damien Timmer would call the “angry” year – and the resulting character developments, do you think you were also a lot more optimistic as both a writer and a person in 2012 than you are today?
RUSS: Oh, I’m always optimistic. Always. Take the long view. We’re an extraordinary species. Right now we’re in the middle of a f*ck-awful catastrophe of our own making – but we’ll fix it. It’s what we do. We’re the problem solving ape. And supposedly uniquely the only type with mortality salience. Awareness of Dying (1965) is good on this. So, the remarkable Greta Thunberg gives cause for hope. The Extinction Rebellion. It feels like we are standing upon one of those fulcrums of history that come along every so often. The way we’ve lived is – to coin a phrase – unsustainable. Also – that old saw, we must love one another or die.
INT. CID/POLICE STATION – DAY 3
ENDEAVOUR exits the lift and comes through to CID OFFICE. The place is buzzing. Phones ring. CID scurry hither and yon. The air thick with cigarette smoke. A moment as he takes it all in.
DCI BOX’s OFFICE off the main drag. THURSDAY’S considerably smaller office. He crosses to a MURDER BOARD — O.S. MAP of the area pinned there. PHOTO of ANN KIRBY. ENDEAVOUR sets an evidence bag down. THURSDAY enters – comes across…
ENDEAVOUR: My report. Syringe is in the bag.
THURSDAY: I’ll see the Guv’nor gets it.
ENDEAVOUR: Anything?
THURSDAY: Early days. You know how it is.
Seeing ENDEAVOUR in CID is more ‘yesterday’ than THURSDAY can bear.
DAMIAN: Both as scripted and shot, how significant is it that the audience first see the new police station, Castle Gate, from Endeavour’s perspective?
RUSS: Absolutely key. We wanted the audience to experience it along with him – and share in his sense of alienation. Change is always unsettling.
DAMIAN: I mentioned paranoia earlier and when I interviewed the production designer of series 5 and 6, Paul Cripps, we discussed how Alan J Pakula’s paranoia trilogy of Klute (1971), The Parallax View (1974) and All the President’s Men (1976) influenced the look and feel of the new CID set. Why were these important to you and how do you think the influence manifests itself in the finished films of series 6?
RUSS: Ah, dear Paul — top man. Certainly the intent was to have a chillier milieu, something lacking the warm, woody tones and cosiness of Cowley. Looking at my pictorial history of Oxford City police, we did draw on the real world new station that seemed to come in with the change from City to Thames Valley. We’ve always wanted it to feel like something that’s evolving naturally – rather than something preserved in aspic.
DAMIAN: And are there any films or television that might have served as visual references for the production designer, Madelaine Leech, this year on series 7?
RUSS: Um… Oddly… Don’t Look Now – a little bit.
Don’t Look Now (1973)
DAMIAN: From your own experience and perspective of the 1970s, which historical, social or cultural events shaped the decade?
RUSS: Crikey. How long have you got? Heath government. Three Day Week. Blackouts. Joining the EC. Oil crisis. ‘75 Referendum. That summer. Jubilee. Winter of Discontent. And then the great misfortune. But across it all – ‘The Troubles’ – as we euphemistically call them. Like a running sore. Blood and dirty protests and hunger strikes and Long Kesh, and knee-capping, and tarred and feathered, and Guildford and Birmingham, and Balcombe Street, and the Disappeared. All of it seemingly played out against the World in Action theme tune. Beyond that – the ever present threat of nuclear annihilation. But I wouldn’t want you to think it was all fun and laughter. The New Economics Foundation – a think tank that does such things – looked into it, and, having looked into it, came to the conclusion that, based on an index of social, economic and environmental factors, 1976 was the best year on record for the quality of life in Britain. I think that The Good Life and Fawlty Towers landing the year before, and The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin being broadcast in ‘76 (Rising Damp and Porridge were also running) may have had something to do with it. Perhaps it’s all down to Leonard Rossiter.
But there certainly was a sort of confidence in the air. Abigail’s Party was almost upon us. What market-research nodes and New Labour would later distill as an ‘aspirational’ mindset. We touched upon it a bit in APOLLO [S6:E2] with that Lotus Eater swinger set. An internationalism seemed to be in play. The uptake in foreign package holidays was really getting into its stride. Jeux Sans Frontieres – which we also nodded to. A sense that we were part of something different and that different was exciting. Beverly’s penchant for Demis Roussos is on one level wildly funny – but as with putting the red wine in the fridge, we are being invited to laugh at her pretentions towards the cosmopolitan.
You’ll also notice around the middle of the decade that ads for things like Campari – ‘Were you truly wafted here from paradise?’, Martini and Cinzano were suddenly everywhere. The Cointreau Christmas ad. All of this spoke to an exoticism – a world beyond our shores. Britain was on the up.
DAMIAN: And looking back at First Bus to Woodstock right up to the end of series 6, were there any historical, social or cultural events that you would have liked to have squeezed in from 1965 to ‘69 but weren’t able to for some reason or another?
RUSS: The death of Hancock. On one level I’m sorry we didn’t mark it – but on another… in our through a glass darkly world, I like to think The Lad Himself is still out there, the fictional Anthony Aloysious St. John Hancock, sometime actor, and general chiseller. There was a grain of hopeful, canine optimism in Galton & Simpson’s version of Hancock that somehow eluded the real man. Well – there’s booze for you. Don’t do it, kids.
HRH PRINCE CHARLES (Voice over): “I, Charles, do become your liege man of life and limb and of earthly worship, and faith and truth I bear unto you, to live and die against all manner of folks.”
DAMIAN: Why was it important to include the investiture of Prince Charles?
RUSS: It’s a memory. My old man was from the Valleys, and was in Wales for his annual fortnightly family visit/holiday at the time of the Investiture. He brought me back a Welsh flag. We had a commemorative mug, too, that I remember. In terms of the design – it’s a handover, isn’t it — or a least the foreshadowing of one. Though one imagines Endeavour has a lot shorter wait to come into his estate than the Prince of Wales.
DAMIAN: As with many aspects of the country at the moment, opinion seems divided regarding the Royle Family. Do you think a character like Endeavour is less likely to be sympathetic towards the monarchy than, say, Thursday or Bright?
RUSS: Well, I think we’ve seen Bright’s starry-eyed encounter with Princess Margaret [ROCKET, S1:E3]. And there would have been a deference hard-wired into Thursday, I suppose. Endeavour – ambivalent at best.
STRANGE: Back to the day-job, then. That was quite nice while it lasted. Bit like the good old days.
ENDEAVOUR: Which were they? Remind me.
DAMIAN: The delightful little social or cultural references in your scripts often resonate with people who personally remember the 60s or 70s and PYLON has quite a few but what really struck a chord with me was simply ‘Mrs. KIRBY pops three fish-fingers under the grill’. Can you describe the smells coming from your kitchen during the late 60s or early 70s?
RUSS: As you know, my domestic arrangements were singular — so the kitchen was more redolent of the Long Weekend. Another slice of gravy, anyone? Our kitchen was a death trap. Health and Safety… just wasn’t a thing. That I am here at all is pure luck. Smells coming from the kitchen? Boiling lard. Seriously. Boiling lard. I’m not sure we’re quite there yet with Endeavour — but the rise of the DEEP FREEZE, so beloved of serial killers, is on its way. Whole livestock carcasses. WHY? Oh, it was a bargain, was it? Suddenly, a dead sheep is on the premises – dismembered and resembling something reclaimed from the tundra permafrost. Arctic Roll? You’re darn tootin’.
INT. ENDEAVOUR’S FLAT/SERGEANTS HOUSE/WOODSTOCK POLICE OUTPOST – DAY 2
Above the shop. It’s seen better days. Some drinks later.
STRANGE: So, what’s the Blues all about?
ENDEAVOUR: CID closed a month after I got to Woodstock. Budget. It was uniform or nothing.
STRANGE: You could’ve gone elsewhere.
ENDEAVOUR leaves that possibility hanging – unanswered…
DAMIAN: Since Endeavour left that possibility hanging, could you perhaps answer on his behalf please?
RUSS: Of course, he couldn’t. He had unfinished business.
… ENDEAVOUR: What about you?
STRANGE: You know me. I’m doing alright.
ENDEAVOUR: There was a piece in the Gazette about an Inter-Departmental something or other.
STRANGE: The Inter-Departmental Forward Strategy Steering Committee.
ENDEAVOUR: Steering what exactly?
STRANGE: Resources. Man-power. It’s a sort of ‘quasi-managerial anticipatory role.’
The management speaks rolls trippingly off the tongue, as from one to the manner born…
DAMIAN: Sometimes a figure of fun but always a thoroughly decent and dependable chap. The beautifully written transition from the Strange in GIRL (S1:E1) to the one we see in THE DEAD OF JERICHO is happening so gradually and subtlety but to what extent are his advancements attributable to the Lodge or his own good character and hard work?
RUSS: I’m enormously fond of Riggers and of all that he’s brought to Strange. He’s a fearsomely good young actor. I’ve seen him on stage, and I can tell you, with Strange we barely scratch the surface of what he can do. Yet we may, Mister Frodo – yet we may. As with all our company, we’ve been enormously fortunate — and I really do admire and respect young Mister Rigby. He’s an absolute gift. His level of preparedness and professionalism… Anybody out there would be lucky to work with him. We see a lot more of Strange in Endeavour, of course, than we ever saw of Jimmy Grout in Inspector Morse. And that’s given us the opportunity to feather in some history beyond that in the series or in the novels. I think he’s hugely able, and that we’ve barely begun to tap into his talents as a copper and a detective. The Lodge has its part to play — but Strange is no fool trading on a funny handshake and an apron.
STRANGE: (lightly) Seen the old man?
ENDEAVOUR: I called the house a few times. Left messages.
STRANGE: I’d’ve told ‘em where to stick it.
ENDEAVOUR: Would you? (they both know STRANGE wouldn’t) Division doesn’t like losing police officers.
STRANGE: Full Disciplinary, though? Busted down a rank? It wasn’t right. (a moment) And we’re still no nearer to finding who did for George.
ENDEAVOUR: ‘We’? I’m here. You’re there. He’s at Castle Gate. Mister Bright at Traffic. There isn’t a we – not any more – nor likely to be.
STRANGE: We said…
ENDEAVOUR: You said. (beat; off STRANGE) I don’t blame you. Heat of the moment. Like the last day of school. Solemn oaths and giddy declarations. ‘We happy few…’
STRANGE: I meant it.
ENDEAVOUR: I’m sure. (beat) But that’s not how it turned out. It’s never how these things turn out.
WIDE – two old friends, coffee table between them – the width of an ocean.
DAMIAN: You know, I increasingly find myself siding with Strange and other supporting characters rather than Endeavour. Indeed, like Strange, I’m often ‘baffled and appalled’ by his attitude. Another example would be the vicious way he mocks Joan’s attempts to improve herself in APOLLO (S6:E2). Maybe it’s just me, but isn’t this a bit of a problem considering he’s the main character?
RUSS: Well, with Joan, of course — ‘If he can’t have her, he must hurt her.’ It’s a mess. What can I tell you? But, in the example you mention, it’s a man putting off the dread hour. If we’re going to look at it in terms of the wretched paradigm, this is the ‘Refusal of the Call to Adventure.’ Barf! There’s a scene with Max that didn’t make the cut – that you’ll have read [this will be included in another interview], where again, Endeavour is really doing his best not to be dragged back into the fray. He’s bleeding. Fancy’s death is chewing him up. He doesn’t want to be the hero that the universe is demanded he becomes. And so he’s dismissive of Strange’s overt camaraderie. We’re back to Bogart — ‘I stick my neck out for nobody.’
ENDEAVOUR at his ablutions. The face that looks back in the mirror is one he hardly recognises. Emotional permafrost. The only clue that this is still our ENDEAVOUR is a wounded look in his eye, for which there is no balm.
DAMIAN: Does Shaun ever have reservations regarding the likeability of his character or does he relish exploring the deep complexity of Endeavour?
RUSS: I always imagine it to be the latter.
EXT. SERGEANT’S HOUSE/WOODSTOCK POLICE OUTPOST
Dusk. ENDEAVOUR walks STRANGE over to his car.
STRANGE: Well, then, matey.
ENDEAVOUR: Let me know next time. I’ll bake a cake.
STRANGE turns for his car – and then turns back.
STRANGE: Oh, I saw Joanie. Said to say hullo if I ran into you.
ENDEAVOUR lets the conversational ball drop.
STRANGE: (CONT’D) Started in as a trainee with the Welfare. So, I suppose it all works out in the end. (turns at his car) We shouldn’t let it go — what happened to George. (off ENDEAVOUR’s indifference) Don’t you care?
ENDEAVOUR: Would it make a difference?
DAMIAN: Tell me about Joan’s new job and the introduction of Viv?
RUSS: I think I’ve said before that I’m deeply invested in her journey – Joan and Win, actually – representing, as they do, two generations of women – a mother and daughter at a hinge of history. And again with Dorothea Frazil – very much a woman in a man’s world – taking a claw-hammer to the glass ceiling. On one level – with the coppers being coppers there’s a danger that it turns into something very blokey. If you’re going to try to paint in some social history beyond the whodunitry, then why would you exclude the greater half the population?
And – again, as I’ve said before – having put Joan through some difficult experiences, it felt right to have her reclaim agency over her own life. Her life, her rules, her way. She’s had quite enough of blokes for the time being, thank you very much — now it’s about her. Her wants and needs. I’d always seen her as someone with a lot to give to the world — and it seemed right that she would move into Welfare – particularly Children’s Welfare – right at the point that people’s need for that service was expanding. There was a show in the early 70s called Helen,A Woman of Today which had that Aznavour hit, ‘She’ as its theme tune. It starred Alison Fiske and Martin Shaw – and was really ahead of its time in the way it put a woman at the centre of the drama, and explored the story from her point of view. Hugely important show. So, there was that, and then an afternoon show with Stephanie Beacham called Marked Personal about the ‘Personnel’ department (HR nowadays) of a large business. Again – that had, in the phrase du jour, a ‘female-centric’ approach. Within These Walls – the Women’s Prison drama with Googie Withers and Mona Washbourne – was also contemporary with these, and clearly made some kind of impression. I suppose all of this fed into how Joan is developing. It seemed like a rich area for us to explore, and I’m sure will prove so. You know, Sara Vickers is just an amazing talent, and I love to write for her. It’s always a thrill to see her work – so intelligent, so sensitive. Enormously grateful to her.
DAMIAN: I’m sure we’ll talk about Thursday in a lot more detail in another one of our interviews but for now, I was wondering if the Clemence subplot was always a part of his backstory or created specifically for this film?
RUSS: I think it was always something at the back of my mind. That because much of his work would have taken place while we still had capital punishment, he would have helped send people to the gallows. Also, in terms of all that followed, combined with the situation he’d found himself in courtesy of Charlie, it undermined him further still.
EXT/NT. 13 JUBILEE ROW – NIGHT XI (FLASHBACK – 1954)
Night and rain. A trench-coated DETECTIVE SERGEANT THURSDAY crosses from CID CAR parked outside – past UNIFORMS and into a house.
Blood spatter up the walls.
In the back parlour – A WOMAN lies dead in a pool of blood. It’s a pretty squalid environment. UNIFORMS, PHOTOGRAPHER, the usual paraphernalia. A flash gun goes off.
Near the body – a PLAYPEN in which a TODDLER (2) stands in a romper suit – bawling its eyes out. THURSDAY reacts — heartstruck. He sweeps the child up from the PLAYPEN, and carries him out.
CUT TO:
INT. THURSDAY’S OFFICE/POLICE STATION – NIGHT 3
ENDEAVOUR: Who killed his mother?
THURSDAY: His father. Philip Clemence. Commercial traveller. Knocked out brushes – door to door.
ENDEAVOUR: He go down for it?
THURSDAY, a moment — darkness here.
DAMIAN: Darkness. You know, I can’t help but think that Thursday’s backstory regarding his younger days in the army and subsequent formative years in the police would make a great film in it’s own right.
RUSS: Only if – as with Sam Vimes and John Keel – Roger could act as mentor (for a while at least!) to his younger self. But yes — when we all turn our warrant cards, I have half an idea to explore Thursday’s London career, but not as a television piece.
INT. GALLOWS – DAY X2 (FLASHBACK – 1954)
PHILIP CLEMENCE’s hands are pinioned by PIERREPOINT. White cloth back goes over his head.
CLEMENCE: I didn’t do it. I’m innocent. Thursday!
PIERREPOINT pulls the handle…
DAMIAN: Pierrepoint was the famous hangman who exectued hundreds including the Acid Bath Murderer and the Rillington Place Strangler as well as more contentious executions such as Timothy Evans and Derek Bentley. Is the latter point the reason you reference him in the script and, if so, why wasn’t this made more explicit in the film?
RUSS: It was there more as a grace note.
Albert Pierrepoint (1905-1992)
EXT. MAX’S HOUSE – DAY 6
ENDEAVOUR on the doorstep. MAX opens the door — wearing a cook’s apron, and with a knife in hand, he looks as if he’s just stepped out of his mortuary.
MAX: (re: the knife) Nothing sinister. I was just getting a seedcake out of the oven.
DAMIAN: Nothing sinister is another Russ-ism – you often say that, you know? Anyway, I loved this scene and was thrilled to finally catch a glimpse of Max’s house and I thought both the baking and his love for gardening was a great insight into how he manages to keep his two worlds at a safe distance.
MAX: Have to give it [the seedcake] half an hour to cool. Well – this is a first. (re: drinks) Splash more?
MAX knocks up a Whisky Mac – scotch and ginger wine over ice.
ENDEAVOUR: Been here long?
MAX: Eight years? Yes. Eight years. Don’t know what I’d do without it, to be honest. How d’you know where I live, by the way?
ENDEAVOUR: You’re in the book. (re: the house and garden) Nice.
MAX: I’m fighting a war of attrition with the greenfly over the tea-roses. Not very successfully, it must be said. But, yes – as a spot I’m rather fond. (a moment)Something has to be lovely, doesn’t it?
DAMIAN: Later in the scene, Max says that ‘I shan’t flatter myself it’s altogether a social call…’ and I was wondering – as is the case in the original Colin Dexter novels – if we will see the point in their relationship where they do actually socialise together?
RUSS: Yes, Jimmy lost out a bit here, insofar as there was an Endeavour taking his leave of Max scene that followed on which I’d thought was quite important [again, this will be included in a later interview]. A spur to Endeavour’s flanks – or at least a prick to his conscience. Perhaps one day we’ll include all the outtakes in the definitive, all our sins remembered, DVD collection. It felt right – Max acting as Jiminy (Jimmy) Cricket to Endeavour’s little wooden boy.
I’m sure we will get to see them socialise more at some point — should we last that long. But in terms of this run of films, it was as much about underlining Endeavour’s own rootlessness at that point. His lack of somewhere to call his own — which would eventually bear fruit at the other end of the run.
DAMIAN: What can you tell us about the first film of series 7, ORACLE?
RUSS: Well, I realised that with all the other things that had to be taken care of in ‘69, I hadn’t gone out of my way to particularly dial up the Scare the Bejesus Meter, and thought those that care for such might have felt left out. So… With that in mind, and as they used to say in the comics, A Happy New Year to All Our Readers.
DAMIAN: When did you first become aware of the art of production design and was there a particular TV show or a trip to the cinema that fired your imagination?
MADELAINE: Maybe I was just a slow starter but it took me a while to realise there was such a thing as production design. I always loved rainy Sunday afternoons when a black and white film would be shown on BBC2. I hated Wimbledon as this slot would be replaced by boring tennis, unless it rained. My favourite films were 1930s, 40s , 50s at home drama so there never “appeared” to be any design, they just were. But one of my favourite films is Alec Guinness in The Man in the White Suit. I loved the story and even more the design and sound of the equipment he uses to make the thread. So I think this is the one which subconsciously fired by imagination. The results and dressing after each bomb blast always amuses me.
Art direction by Jim Morahan Alexandre Trauner worked with many great directors but one of mine and Madelaine’s favourite films was this collaboration with Billy Wilder.
DAMIAN: Are there any production designers that have inspired you over the years?
MADELAINE: I love the work of Alexandre Trauner. And Ken Adam with his sets for James Bond are fantastic.
Dr. No was the first of Ken Adam’s seven stunningly designed Bond films which largely influenced the style of the entire seriesGoldfingerThunderballYou Only Live TwiceDiamonds Are ForeverThe Spy Who Loved MeMoonraker
DAMIAN: You’ve worked in various different genres but what kind of project really gets you excited to the point where you can’t stop thinking of ideas?
MADELAINE: Drama. It all begins for me from the characters in the script. I start to imagine what type of home or environment would they have created for themselves. Or what outside factors have influenced that person.
DAMIAN: And you’ve also worked as a set decorator, art director and, of course, production designer. Can you tell me a little bit about your training and at what point you realised that this was the creative discipline for you?
MADELAINE: I went to Art College and studied Interior Design. I knew it wasn’t the career for me but worked designing pubs, hotels and offices for about two years. Then in the 1980s, like many people, I was made redundant. I wondered why I was trying so hard to get into a job I found very slow. So I turned my attention to designing for TV. I was lucky enough to get a job in the BBC design department. From that moment, I have loved every minute in this industry.
DAMIAN: Your many impressive credits include another detective series, Vera, do you have any favourite productions that you’ve worked on or consider to be particularly instrumental in your development as a production designer?
MADELAINE: One of the jobs I am most proud of, other than Endeavour of course, was a single drama about Shirley Bassey. A designer’s dream to be able to follow a character over many years. We started in the 1930s and ran through till the 1960s. I loved the amount of research which was required into a real person but also giving me the freedom to interpret her personality. It was a fun job.
DAMIAN: How did you come to work on Endeavour?
MADELAINE: I had wanted to design Endeavour… well… forever really. I love the show. A little bird had told me Paul Cripps was moving on so I asked my agent to push for an interview. I was seen by the Line Producer and the Producer and I was very, very lucky to be successful.
DAMIAN: Endeavour has had various previous production designers: Pat Campbell did First Bus to Woodstock, followed by Matt Gant, Anna Higginson, Anna Pritchard, Alison Butler and the aforementioned Paul Cripps worked on the previous two series. Perhaps unlike some other aspects of film and television making, would you say from your own experience that art departments offer more opportunities regardless of gender?
MADELAINE: Yes, it does seem like that. Which is a very good thing. I think they do go for just the best person for the job rather than gender.
DAMIAN: Did you look at their work as part of your research or for reference before you started your own designs and is it more challenging to take over from previous artists or more artistically rewarding to start from scratch?
MADELAINE: Yes I did. Endeavour has its own style and I did my research and looked at all the previous designers work. One thing that struck me was the volume of graphics required so I knew from the start I needed a strong graphics department.
I enjoyed fitting in with the previous designers work and as each film introduces new storylines, you still get the opportunity to put your mark on it.
Colour mood boardOriginal locationThe finished set
DAMIAN: Compared to most TV dramas, would you agree that Endeavour is especially ambitious in that each different film has its own unique look and feel?
MADELAINE: Yes, I do agree. It works really well as each episode has a different Director and Director of Photography so they manage to achieve this very successfully I think.
DAMIAN: I know from meeting Paul and Russ and my subsequent interviews with them both that there was a lot of discussion regarding the look and feel of last year’s new CID set and how it would evoke the themes of alienation, change, guilt and paranoia. Without giving too much away, what do you consider to be the main themes of series seven and how do your designs reflect them?
MADELAINE: We have continued these themes in this series too. But also added deceit and decay. I believe we have achieved the decay rather well with wall treatments, colours and textures.
DAMIAN: What was the most challenging set to design of the three films this year?
MADELAINE: Again without saying too much, the story travels abroad on this series. I had to recreate some of these lands far away within the Watford area. We had two amazing location managers. So with their help I think we have succeeded in making the audience believe they are not in the UK.
DAMIAN: Considering series five had six episodes, you had it easy didn’t you?
MADELAINE: I take my hat off to all the cast and crew who worked on series five. We only did three but yes it was very hard work. But worth it and a lot of fun. Many of the crew return each year and I can see why. They are a very friendly, hardworking and professional team.
DAMIAN: I was born in the seventies so I’m especially curious to see how the look of Endeavour has evolved this year. Now, I’ve mentioned this many times to Russ but one of the productions that I relate to most strongly in terms of the visual look and “smell” of the seventies is Hitchcock’s Frenzy. It’s something that I can’t quite describe but, despite the fact that it is obviously about a serial killer, it remains the one film which resonates with me and has visual echoes of my own childhood. Funny thing, when I asked Russ to give me an example of a film that visually echoed his first memories, he said 10 Rillington Place! – dare I ask what yours might be?
MADELAINE: I love 1970’s films and TV now but in my youth I was definitely into much older films. I would love films like Hobson’s Choice. Saying that, Far from the Madding Crowd (1967 version) was a favourite to be watched over and over.
Hobson’s ChoiceFar from the Madding Crowd. DAMIAN: I like the red curtains very much.
DAMIAN: We obviously got a glimpse of Endeavour’s new home in the last series which fans know from the original Inspector Morse series. To what extent do you think you have put your own personal spin on this while also remaining faithful to how it looked when the show was first broadcast in 1987?
MADELAINE: When preparing for my interview I looked at the Inspector Morse programmes with special interest to his house. I decided the best way was to start from the end and work back. Again the location manager on series 6 was very clever in finding a house that had the feel of the original. Morse’s living room was a pale baby blue which I felt was wrong for the younger man. Due to Russ’ script and the feeling of decay and the fact that the squat which he had bought at the end series 6 had been covered with graffiti I decided strip back the walls but keep the many layers of wallpaper. It looked great and Russ even changed the action to suit the design.
DAMIAN: Madelaine, thank you very much indeed.
MADELAINE: Thank you. I love your website, it really helped me when I was researching to get to work on Endeavour.
‘I see Dorothea in the 1960s as having the sleuth-like brains of Ms Marple, the independent feminism of Germaine Greer, the seductive charms of Ava Gardner and the sense of humour of Eric Morcambe.’
Abigail Thaw (March, 2014)
DAMIAN: It’s been almost six years since our first interview and yet I vividly remember what you told me when I asked you to describe Dorothea which still makes me smile every single time you appear onscreen. Still a good description isn’t it?
ABIGAIL: Hah. Yup.
DAMIAN: And how would you describe Dorothea in 1970?
ABIGAIL: The same! A little older. A little sadder. But perhaps a little more hopeful.
DAMIAN: What do you personally remember of the 70s; any key historic social or political moments, films or TV shows that defined the decade for you?
ABIGAIL: Well, I was a kid so for me it was the music and the TV. David Bowie and Suzi Quattro. Stevie Wonder and Funkadelic. The Generation Game, Morecambe and Wise and Six Million Dollar Man. The hot summer of ‘76. Power cuts. Fewer cars. Playing football in the streets… Sitting outside pubs with a coke and a packet of crisps while the grown-ups lived it up inside. Actually, we loved that. Can you imagine that now?! My kids certainly can’t. Like driving around in a car with a chain-smoking adult and the windows closed!
But in terms of family life, in the early 70s the Women’s Movement was the most prominent continual event. My mother was very involved and it meant a lot of marches and meetings and travelling with her to conferences. Some of my earliest memories are sitting on her lap or in the creche at the Oxford Union. She was a mature student there and started up the Women’s Liberation Conference along with her peers. This finds its way into the first film of series 7, actually. My daughter is playing my mother, very briefly!
I was always brought up to believe I was equal to a man. It was a simple doctrine. No better or worse but entitled to the same opportunities and the same respect. And I was always encouraged to speak up if I felt there was an injustice to me or anyone else. Trade unions had a lot of power but not many women did so mum helped set up the Night Cleaners Union. They were women who had very few rights and did the shifts no one else wanted to do. It meant going on a lot of demonstrations and painting banners and even wearing a night cleaner’s overall at the front of the march which maybe influenced my desire to act and show off in later life! My mother was very serious about the ideology and felt that men were part of that movement. My step-father was very present as was my father and she loved men. I think that made me feel confident to fight my corner if I felt there was injustice. That men weren’t the enemy, they were my friends. It was society!
DAMIAN: So much has happened since 1965 and I’ve got a few questions about Dorothea and her relationship with Endeavour in particular. First of all, you told me before that she has ‘a fond and protective spot’ for him and is ‘often trying to find ways “in”’. Do you think she has found a way “in” yet?
ABIGAIL: I do, actually. They don’t need to say much but they have been through a lot, seen a lot, fallen out and reconciled. That adds depth.
DAMIAN: Also from our previous interview, I remember you mentioning Russ’ excellent scripts, the way he writes with a particular syntax for each character and that you and Shaun often try to find ways to play with this as you both like a bit of a laugh. However, you also mentioned that the directors often try to reign you both in on this so I’m wondering -since Shaun is obviously a director himself now- if you feel a little more free to explore and experiment with the dialogue when he’s at the helm?
ABIGAIL: Hah. Not really. I’m a big believer in the written word. It’s been put there for a reason. But things change all the time on set. Sometimes time simply runs out or a plot line has to change so you adapt. The exploration mainly comes from how you say something rather than what. And I’m often surprised to find the mood of a scene can go a different way. Probably much to Russ’ dismay!
DAMIAN: You told me that you had a notebook tucked away with some thoughts when I asked if you had your own ideas regarding Dorothea’s backstory. Since then, Russ wrote a scene in QUARTET (S5:E5) which was sadly cut but would have offered some great insight into the character’s past:
INT. AMBER LODGE/LOBBY – DAY 1
CLAUDINE at the RECEPTION desk. She comes across to DOROTHEA…
CLAUDINE: Miss Frazil? Claudine Darc. I’m a photo-journalist.
DOROTHEA: Bad luck.
CLAUDINE: And a friend of Morse. Would you sign something for me?
CLAUDINE pulls out a well-thumbed book — ‘TRAVELS WITH MYSELF – THE WAR IN KOREA – BY DOROTHEA FRAZIL.’
DOROTHEA: Good heavens. Where did you find that?
CLAUDINE: A book-seller on the Seine by Pont-Neuf. It’s a classic. It means a lot to me. (as DOROTHEA SIGNS) What was it like? For a woman on the Front Line.
DOROTHEA: Are you squeamish?
CLAUDINE: No.
DOROTHEA: Then you’ll be alright. Why?
CLAUDINE: Why didn’t you do more?
DOROTHEA: Ask me when you come back.
DAMIAN: I wouldn’t have thought of Dorothea as being squeamish either so I’m wondering why Dorothea didn’t do more. Was it fatigue, too traumatic an experience or simply a revulsion for slaughter and suffering?
ABIGAIL: I think the latter mainly. At some point you reach saturation point and you either normalise it – and go slightly mad – or you call a halt. I think she thought, enough. I’m going back to Oxford, where I was happiest. Not much can happen there…!
DAMIAN: Dorothea often witnesses Endeavour in his darkest moments such as the following scene -as written rather than shot- during the aftermath of George Fancy’s death in ICARUS (S5:E6):
EXT. SNOOKER HALL – NIGHT 5
Police vehicles. In the lee of the entrance, ENDEAVOUR — shocked to his core – he struggles a smoke to his lips, but his hands are trembling too hard to light it. DOROTHEA…
DOROTHEA: Here.
She lights his smoke. Their eyes meet over the flame.
DOROTHEA (CONT’D): Is it true?
The answer in ENDEAVOUR’s – wounded, thousand yard stare.
Time and again she also acts as something of an emotional intelligence mentor as in the following scene from PYLON (S6:E1), once again on the subject of George Fancy:
DOROTHEA: You have to forgive him.
ENDEAVOUR: For what?
DOROTHEA: Dying. Then you can forgive yourself – for being angry at him. It’s part of letting go.
ENDEAVOUR: Have you just got back from an Ashram?
DOROTHEA: Make peace with him, Morse. Or it’ll eat you alive.
DAMIAN: Is Dorothea simply offering sage advice or is there perhaps more to this scene such as the possibility that it comes from her own experiences of pain and guilt?
ABIGAIL: I think she’s been there in some way. Again, we’ve had a glimpse of what it was in another episode but it was cut.
DAMIAN: There’s a wonderful scene in CONFECTION (S6:E3) with Dorothea and Endeavour who has fallen for yet another wrong’un:
DOROTHEA: Second time lucky. The vet’s daughter.
ENDEAVOUR: Haven’t you had enough of gossip to going on with for now.
DOROTHEA: What we do, isn’t it? ‘I won’t quarrel with my bread and butter.’
DOROTHEA: Buy you a drink? They say misery loves company.
ENDEAVOUR: Another time?
DOROTHEA heads off. ENDEAVOUR alone.
DAMIAN: If only Dorothea was a few years younger! You know, intertextual Freudian nightmares aside, I often think that Dorothea and Endeavour would make a great couple were it not for their age difference. A lovely moment from HARVEST, where the two of them are exploring the higher levels of a power station and he freezes because of his fear of heights and she says ‘Just shut your eyes and take my hand. Come on. One foot in front of the other.’
I’ve asked Russ if Dorothea is just a little bit attracted to Endeavour but he says that is absolutely not the case so let me put it differently and ask a slightly different question: if Endeavour ever had a long-term girlfriend, wouldn’t she have good reason to be jealous of his relationship with Dorothea?
ABIGAIL: Well, probably. In the sense that Dorothea has access to parts of his interior life that he doesn’t share lightly. So even though it’s not sexual, it is intimate. When people ask me why Endeavour and Dorothea don’t get together – apart from the Freudian nightmare! – I think of the ancient Greeks’ belief that friendship is more valuable than erotic love: the latter makes things messy and ultimately can end. Friendship endures and deepens.
DAMIAN: Now, it obviously goes without saying that I’m a huge fan of Endeavour and a great admirer of Russ’ writing. However, I don’t think my interviews with him – we’ve done one on each and every episode over the last six years- would work if I simply told him how brilliant he was every time. Indeed, we’ve had our differences of opinion and one of the points of contention involves Dorothea because I was disappointed by her relationship with Kent Finn in GAME (S4:E1) who is described in the script as ‘a brooding inkslinger clinging to his thirties by a fingernail… [his fandom as] an Oxford equivalent of James Ellroy’s ‘peepers, prowlers, pederasts, panty-sniffers, punks and pimps’…’
Furthermore, on seeing Dorothea, ‘A flirty, lupine smile plays roguishly about his lip… is the kind of crap line that belongs in one of his novels’. And so I was disappointed that someone as wise and perceptive as Dorothea would get involved with such a man. What are your thoughts on this?
ABIGAIL: Hasn’t everyone had an amour fou? Maybe he was great in bed and no strings attached!
DAMIAN: And another issue was that, as exciting as the her abduction was to watch and the subsequent car chase and crash, I wondered if seeing Dorothea in the role of damsel in distress was also a little disappointing as opposed to giving her something more empowering to do?
ABIGAIL: I see your point but I think the fact that she got herself out of his clutches by strangling him while he drove like a lunatic was pretty brave. She wasn’t worried about the inevitable car crash when you’re choking the driver.
DAMIAN: Rather than engulfed in flames, the original idea was for the car to be submerged in water but was changed for budget reasons. Was this for the best or are you a good swimmer?
ABIGAIL: Haha. Yes, I am a good swimmer. It really was budget. And I think it was Endeavour who was going to fish me out of the water. So maybe I was deemed too heavy!
DAMIAN: I was thrilled to hear that Sheila Hancock would be appearing in HARVEST (S4:E4) to celebrate the 30th Anniversary of Inspector Morse but disappointed that the two of you didn’t share a scene together. However, when I later studied the script, I was even more dismayed to discover the following scene was actually written for the two of you but not bloody used:
EXT. BRAMFORD MERE
DOROTHEA: Good morning, Miss Chattox. Dorothea Frazil. Oxford Mail. I interviewed you a few years ago, about your battle with the Power Station.
DOWSABLE: I remember you.
DOROTHEA: Still fighting the good fight, I see.
DOWSABLE: If you mean they haven’t seen me off yet, then, no – they haven’t. Nor will they.
DAMIAN: Please tell me this scene was actually filmed and still exists somewhere?
ABIGAIL: It was and it does. Somewhere.
DAMIAN: And finally, I told Russ recently that I thought both he and the show were a lot more optimistic in 1965 than 1969 and highlighted as evidence some of the more politically-charged storylines such as those in series 5 which Damien Timmer called his “angry” year. What do you think Dorothea would make of a country that seems so politically divided in 2020?
ABIGAIL: I think she would despair. As I do. But she’d have a more practical approach to trying to fix it.
DAMIAN: Abigail, thank you very much indeed and let’s not leave it so long next time.
DAMIAN: Dickens (aka Uncovering the Real Dickens) was a wonderful three-part 2002 BBC docudrama written and presented by the great Peter Ackroyd. Now, the reason I mention this, aside from the fact that I love to rewatch it almost every Christmas, is the fact that this series introduced me to your work. It’s the most superior portrait and I found your interpretation of Dickens to be authentically tortured, gritty and even somewhat cruel at times. I’m wondering to what extent you discussed, either with directors Mary Downes and Chris Granlund or Ackroyd himself, how far you went as an actor in exploring such a dark side to one of our greatest and most celebrated writers?
ANTON: Hmm, we’re going back a bit now aren’t we? Yes, my goodness, well, from the research that I remember doing he was quite a difficult man. He was such a mixture, a really complex character and I think that’s what I always look for in whatever I’m playing; not necessarily a grittiness, but a complexity. So when you come across stories about the difficulties, how difficult he was to live with and all those stories about his wife and the affair and building a wall in the middle of their bedroom, it really inspires you not to go for the easy option, but really mine it for layers. I hope that it had those layers and wasn’t just sort of one aspect of a very complex character.
DAMIAN: And there’s an accompanying programme where Dickens is at home performing A Christmas Carol for friends and family who are gathered around him beside a glowing fireplace. Again, it’s an extraordinary and almost hypnotic experience to watch such a tour de force performance as you play Dickens acting out all the various characters with such energy and vigour; ranting, seething and barking – it was simply remarkable to see such danger and unpredictability. I wonder, do you ever get lost in the moment during such performances?
ANTON: Oh, erm… [laughs] what I remember most about that was that because I wear specs and couldn’t wear them [as Dickens] for reading, and I wasn’t familiar with contact lenses at that time, I had to learn the whole thing – the whole book!
DAMIAN: Good heavens! I assumed you had an autocue because they were extremely long takes…
ANTON: [laughs] It would have been great to be able to read it but I couldn’t see it! I had to learn it and pretend to be reading so the energy in that was to do with trying to remember.
DAMIAN:Well as I say, such energy and your arms were flailing about so much I was sure that you’d knock the glass of sherry over on the table next to you but you never did. Just a marvellous performance.
ANTON: Thank you.
DAMIAN: Let’s go back to the beginning of it all. I believe that you originally considered a career as an architect so at what point did you decide to pursue acting instead?
ANTON: That’s right. I did a degree at Liverpool University in architecture and then the usual course was you did a year out in practice and you came back and did a Masters and another year out. A bit like medicine you know, seven years! So I did my year out in Africa, in Nigeria, doing voluntary service overseas and while I was there I saw a British Council Film about the Royal Shakespeare Company and I had a kind of moment of recognition that that’s what I should do and I came back, went to RADA and my first job was with the RSC! So it was a very powerful experience of certainty about what I should be doing and that’s how it happened.
DAMIAN: Were you a nervous student or did you feel instantly at home at RADA?
ANTON: I loved it actually. I remember the first day feeling very daunted when they took us round the theatre and I thought oh my God, how the hell are you supposed to make yourself heard in a big place like this. So I was quite nervous in that respect but I loved being there because I’d done my student days already at University, I was there to get what I could get not to be a sort of student do you know what I mean? So I really made the most of it, yeah, I think I had a wonderful time there.
DAMIAN: You’ve mentioned fearing the audience wouldn’t hear you in such a huge theatre but was it during this period that you developed that wonderful aristocratic voice of yours?
ANTON: [Huge explosion of hearty laughter] Erm, I don’t know, I mean I’m a Brummie! So I don’t know about that, hmmm, I dunno. I think vocally, I’ve always been very unsure of myself…
DAMIAN: Really?
ANTON: I’ve always wanted to have a relaxed and really easeful voice but I’ve had a lot of vocal problems, particularly the last few years, so it’s an area I’ve never felt that I can really express what I want to express. It has always been a sort of compromise. I hear stuff coming out of my mouth and I find it very disappointing; the gap between being able to speak and the actual delivery is very often deeply unsatisfying and tense. I have this subjective judgement, we all do I suppose, but other people say nice things about it and offer me work.
DAMIAN: I find that absolutely astonishing to hear. As a regular listener to Radio 4, I often hear you in the plays or reading poetry and your voice is instantly recognisable – it’s a fantastic voice.
ANTON: [Slightly bashful] Thank you.
DAMIAN: You’re probably hardly ever the tallest actor on set, and yet, our eyes cannot help but gravitate towards you and you effortlessly command every scene you’re in. Tell me, where does this power and energy come from?
ANTON: Well first of all, I’m very flattered but I don’t recognise that as true because, you know, I am tiny and I think of myself as lightweight. I’ve been watching this series on television on Sky about great actors and great directors and the ones that I admire have a sort of effortless authority. I was watching one about Peter Finch last night and Anthony Hopkins, you know people like that, so I don’t feel as though I do have that quality that you describe but it’s lovely to hear.
DAMIAN: Well I think there will be many who would argue otherwise but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Anyway, I was actually going to ask you about this, in retrospect, were there certain actors in theatre or on film and television when you were growing up in Birmingham that you particularly admired and may have inspired or influenced your decision to become an actor later on?
ANTON: Yes, I mean long before I ever thought of being an actor, I do remember seeing John Wood in a play in Birmingham when I was at school and it was called The Sorrows of Frederick, about Frederick the Great, and it was this absolutely amazing performance and that obviously had a huge impact, and much later of course, I had the privilege of working with him and was able to tell him how he inspired me. Another actor I saw as a student at Liverpool was Jonathan Pryce who was at the Everyman Theatre. He had a powerful impact on me. I saw him do a lot in Liverpool and then when I was at RADA, he’d done Comedians, the Trevor Griffiths play in Nottingham and then the West End, and when we got to finals and I had to choose a part for the showcase performance, I said to the principal I’d like to do the Jonathan Pryce part in Comedians and he said alright, if you can cast it from your year we’ll do it and we did and it was that which was seen by Joyce Nettles who was the casting director at Stratford at that time and that’s how I got my first job.
DAMIAN: And, of course, since then you’ve many credits across theatre, film, television and radio, but at what point in your career did you start to become associated with roles in which you are often cast as rather regal characters and those in positions of authority?
ANTON: Yeah, I don’t know how that happened really. I mean I’m trying to think of the first one. I suppose because my first job was Richard of Gloucester in the Henry sixes, I started very early being associated with the classics and Shakespeare which was a huge surprise to me because I thought I was just going to end up holding a spear but then I went on to do, I suppose, classic costume drama on television like Anna of the Five Towns. So yeah, I suppose I started to get a connection with classic literature rather than modern stuff. Maybe that was it but the regal thing? – I don’t know! [laughs]
DAMIAN: Well, I’ve some examples for you: the Archbishop of Canterbury in The Palace, the Duke of Exeter in The Hollow Crown, Prime Minister Attlee in A United Kingdom and Sir Thomas More in Wolf Hall (2015) which is a production I believe you are particularly proud of?
ANTON: Oh, I think it’s one of the best jobs that I’ve ever done because of the wonderful director, Peter Kosminsky who was fantastic, the adaptation and of course, Hilary Mantel’s amazing material. And then you had this sort of gallery of wonderful practitioners and actors and I was just so privileged to be in that. I was thinking the other day that I’m very lazy as a person, and, as an actor – I’ll get away with whatever I can get away with [laughs] but I remember thinking with that job, I don’t want a day off – I want to be here everyday and to be playing every part because I think it’s so brilliant! So yes, I certainly have an attraction for classic literature and great writing. Yeah I’ve been very fortunate.
Thomas More in Wolf Hall
DAMIAN: And in addition to Attlee of course, I must mention another Prime Minister, this time Harold Macmillan in The Crown (2017) and you also play Qyburn in Game of Thrones which are two of the biggest shows on the planet at the moment! Is it fair to say that you are more popular now than you’ve ever been?
ANTON: [laughs] Erm, I think you’d have to ask my agent [more laughter] because you don’t really know what you’re availability is being checked for.
DAMIAN: But you must recognise the enormous impact that these two shows have had?
ANTON: Absolutely. Yes huge, absolutely huge, and I feel very, very honoured to have been involved in them at all. I mean what is sad as an actor is when you see something like The Crown and you notice how many scenes you’ve shot that are no longer in it. That’s really difficult.
Harold Macmillan in The Crown
Qyburn in Game of Thrones
DAMIAN: Well, it’s interesting that you say that at this point because I obviously want to discuss Endeavour, and I’ve done a series of interviews with Russ Lewis [writer and deviser of the show] since 2013 where we discuss each and every episode in some detail and it’s quite surprising, upsetting even, that so many scenes are cut.
ANTON: I know, I mean I watched the first one last week of this new series and I was sitting there thinking, oh, for God’ sake, here we go again, that’s another scene [cut] and the reason that they always give, I mean I don’t know what Russ has said to you, is because of the format, the guests each week are the people that drive the plot so inevitably you can’t save time by cutting any of their stuff. So what has to go is the lovely backstory and detail that is so rich and unusual and interesting but, you know, is actually dispensable. So invariably, if there’s a nice scene with me and Roger where we’re talking about family, life and the past – a lovely little look into an another area of their life, that’s the first thing to go. Every year it happens and every year I complain…
DAMIAN: But I think Russ probably feels the pain most. Now, because I’ve interviewed so many of the cast over the last few years, it wouldn’t quite be the done thing to have a favourite character. Therefore, let me say instead that Reginald Bright is a character with which I have a particular interest and fascination. In my interviews with Russ, he told me that some of the initial inspiration for Bright came from Viscount Montgomery of Alamein. To what extent was this useful in helping to find your character as you prepared to play Bright for the first time?
ANTON: Well I mean I didn’t know much about him, that particular man, but I knew enough anecdotally – bits of footage that we’ve all seen over the years about the war. I got a sense of that type of man but I think what helped me most was the letter that Russ wrote to me when he was describing the character and he was describing what he felt about him and I sort of intuitively got a sense of what he was after so it’s in no way, my portrayal, is in no way a response to in depth research about Montgomery.
DAMIAN: I also asked Russ about Bright’s backstory and he had the following to say: ‘Bright has come – as I think is alluded to in some of his dialogue – from the Colonial Police, and has spent most of his career ‘overseas’. I think that dictates in some part his attitude to the men. He is still applying the lessons learnt in the tropics – a certain ‘Empire’ way of dealing with ‘local officers’ and indigenous peoples – to the good folk of Oxford. His is a world – his younger days at least – straight out of John Betjeman’s A Subaltern’s Love Song. ‘Six o’clock news… lime juice and gin.’ The second son. Packed off to ‘foreign climes’ to make his way in the world, and do his bit for King and Country. He is a man even more out of time than most in the 1960s. But, he is a very decent man, if a little dazzled by those he perceives as his social betters. When the chips are down, his loyalty to his troops – for all his bark and bite – is total.’ What’s your response to these influences?
ANTON: Sounds like the man I’m playing doesn’t it?
DAMIAN: Absolutely.
ANTON: Yes, I’m very glad to hear that because it means that I’m sort of pretty well there. I love him and I feel especially sad that we don’t see more of what’s going on underneath. We do in the last two episodes as you’ll see but, erm, I just think the viewer is always more interested in the peoples’ backstory than in the plot because I think that’s the continuous nature of the piece. They get a different story every week but they’re hung on this continuous thread that we’ve known and loved all these years. That’s what nourishes the whole thing.
DAMIAN: To what extent did you discuss the future of Bright and where he was heading as a character with Russ?
ANTON: Not at all. No, I mean I don’t know how much of an arc he had in his head right in the beginning and don’t know whether he knew then about what’s happening now [with Bright and his wife].
DAMIAN: Well, it’s interesting because I’ve recently done an interview with Damien Timmer [executive producer and managing director of Mammoth Screen] and he feels quite certain that, if you take someone like Joan Thursday for example, Russ has actually got many of the character arcs all mapped out. Indeed, I asked Russ in one of our interviews when he knew Endeavour and Joan would fall for each other and he said the moment I had her open the door for him that first time.
ANTON: But do you think right at that beginning he had the end in view – the whole thing in view?
DAMIAN: Well, yes…
ANTON: Oh!
DAMIAN: Obviously I don’t know the details but that was another question I asked and Russ told me he knows exactly how Endeavour will end and that was back in 2013!
ANTON: Gosh!
DAMIAN: Yeah. Anyway, in addition to the aforementioned A Subaltern’s Love Song, which has always struck Russ as a sort of Between Wars idyll, he cites Indoor Games Near Newbury, also by Betjeman, and Love For Lydia by HE Bates, as continued inspirations for Bright. Looking at texts such as these, some of which might simply be seen as a gentle satire on the middle classes, also evoke a certain rites of passage and courtship rituals; the sitting in the car outside the dance for example, which combine to suggest a very loving man with a deeply sensitive side to him which perhaps only his wife would be privy to. Was exploring Bright’s home life something that you’ve pushed for? I mean, I’ve personally pestered Russ for years about why we can’t meet Mrs. Bright…
ANTON: [Laughs] Well only that, as I’ve said, I’ve always wanted more of what’s going on behind. We had one little story about his time in India didn’t we with the tiger? I just think that those things are so precious and so I have wanted more.
PREY
But the interesting thing about his wife is that there was a scene very early on and there was a picture of his wife on his desk and we were discussing with Thursday some infidelity that was part of a case that they were looking at. And, when the director was shooting it, he was shooting it across the desk towards me and I said, you know -this is me sort of being desperate to get one of those threads into the scene- and I said if you shot it from the other side, you can get me shooting a glance at that photograph. Obviously we don’t have it in the dialogue for anything to be inferred but it’s just another little thing that somebody might pick up when they’re talking, just get a little note of something that says I wonder if something’s gone on in his own life back in India. Yeah, that was just me trying to get another little note and colour in there.
GIRL
DAMIAN: When we first met Bright in GIRL (S1:E1) he was a stickler for the rules and could only see things in black and white. However, NEVERLAND (S2:E4) saw the beginning of a gradual softening in Bright’s character, do you agree that this was a turning point for him and how deeply do you think he was affected by the events at Blenheim Vale?
ANTON: Oh yes, with the child abuse and all that. Yeah, I think that was huge for him because we started to see his own history about his own child. We started to get intimations that something might have happened in his history and he has a deep wound. Yes definitely, that was when I started to feel I wanted to see more of what was going on.
NEVERLAND
DAMIAN: And I think there was another turning point for Bright when he gives Thursday his revolver back in CODA (S3:E4) even though Division made it quite clear that he was to remain suspended from duty. Was this Bright’s way of making his peace with Thursday following the shooting?
ANTON: Yes, I think there was a couple of moments like that when Thursday got himself into a scrape, didn’t he beat a witness up? There was a lovely scene where Bright actually goes against all his principles, about going according to the book. Moments like that were huge for him because he’s always done everything by the book, but of course has learned as we all do, that life doesn’t operate by the book and it doesn’t actually always serve your best intentions and there are moments when you have to abandon the book. I think those little moments for his character were brilliant because they allowed me to show a man who’s worldview has actually started to be dismantled. That’s what I always find interesting, that’s where I think we can see through the cracks into something more human and that’s what we recognise. I think television can become really, really powerful when we recognise our own humanity.
CODA
DAMIAN: One of the lovely surprises regarding Bright was seeing how he welcomed and warmed to WPC Shirley Trewlove when she was first introduced in ARCADIA (S3:E2), ‘My door is always… well, if not actually open then not infrequently ajar’.
ANTON: And again, that’s that whole child thing isn’t it? At first you sort of sense that there was this rather, you know, a man far too old having sort of feelings for this attractive young woman and then we realise no, it’s a father-daughter thing. And then we understand that later when he talks about his daughter dying in India.
ARCADIAICARUS
DAMIAN: Were you particularly pleased to read the script for PREY and discover that Bright took centre stage in the climatic action set-piece for once?
ANTON: [mischievous laughter] That’s been my favourite scene in the whole series!
PREY
DAMIAN: Has it really?
ANTON: Yep, just to have that moment where we stop having to relentlessly be, you know, motivated by the plot and we can actually zoom in on the human beings who have this history and reasons for why they are behaving in the way they do. I loved it! I really loved that episode. Yeah, that’s really been a highlight and it was directed by Lawrence Gough who has become a really good friend. I’ve just done a film with him called Gatecrash.
DAMIAN: When will that be released?
ANTON: Well, I’m hoping soon but I think it’s got to do the rounds at the festivals before it gets any real exposure – look out for it!
DAMIAN: I certainly will. Now, we were talking about Trewlove before and when I interviewed Dakota Blue Richards last year I asked her what it was like working with an actor of such gravitas as Anton Lesser and she replied, ‘Anton is one of the world’s better people. The ideal combination of talent, humour, professionalism and gentility. He never fails to delight me and is always the best part of my day. Working with him has truly been a joy and an honour’. That’s quite an endorsement isn’t it?
ANTON: Aw, blimey, that’s amazing – she’s such a liar!!! [laughs]
DAMIAN: Were you sad to see her go?
ANTON: Yeah, I really was. I could understand it though, I mean she is a fantastic actor and it wasn’t really fulfilling enough for her – it wasn’t going anywhere. Obviously they wanted her to stay and they did everything they could, but no, it wasn’t enough. You need to keep refueling as an actor.
ICARUS
DAMIAN: I thought it was a pity because in the last series they really built up her character quite significantly.
ANTON: Yeah I know it was a really sad. I felt for her because I’ve had similar feelings all the way through. I thought to myself if this character doesn’t start opening up somehow, if we don’t see something going on I can’t see myself continuing, but each year they’ve asked me back and they’ve said it’s going to be great and we’ll try and get that theme back that we couldn’t get [before] and put it back in. To an extent that’s happened [now] but I mean it’s still frustrating because the amount of screen time that you get as one of these characters can be minimal then and that’s OK if, when you are on screen, it’s a scene that is more than just sort of ‘very well, carry on’ sort of acting.
DAMIAN: I understand but I’d never forgive you if you did leave… [Anton laughs] Given what you’ve just said then, how did you feel about the changes to Bright with the closure of Cowley and the character developments relating to his demotion?
ANTON: Well again, the man starts to become much more vulnerable and that is much more interesting to explore than somebody who is always on top of everything and by the book – it gets to become a bit predictable and not very interesting to play. So now when things fall apart, it becomes more tender, softer, vulnerable and complicated. So I’m enjoying this last phase of the story much more.
DAMIAN: In addition to Russ’ amazing scripts, I think the magic of Endeavour is that it’s got this wonderful ensemble cast that work so well together and share this magical chemistry.
ANTON: Yeah, we’ve also had a whole mix of directors of course. But yes, that consistency, having that one eye over everything – it’s wonderful from our point of view because you know it’s one voice. One storyteller.
DAMIAN: Anton, it’s been an absolute honour and a privilege to do this interview so thank you very much indeed.
ANTON: It was nice to talk to you, cheers Damian.
A Subaltern’s Love Song
Miss J. Hunter Dunn, Miss J. Hunter Dunn, Furnish’d and burnish’d by Aldershot sun, What strenuous singles we played after tea, We in the tournament – you against me!
Love-thirty, love-forty, oh! weakness of joy, The speed of a swallow, the grace of a boy, With carefullest carelessness, gaily you won, I am weak from your loveliness, Joan Hunter Dunn.
Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, How mad I am, sad I am, glad that you won, The warm-handled racket is back in its press, But my shock-headed victor, she loves me no less.
Her father’s euonymus shines as we walk, And swing past the summer-house, buried in talk, And cool the verandah that welcomes us in To the six-o’clock news and a lime-juice and gin.
The scent of the conifers, sound of the bath, The view from my bedroom of moss-dappled path, As I struggle with double-end evening tie, For we dance at the Golf Club, my victor and I.
On the floor of her bedroom lie blazer and shorts, And the cream-coloured walls are be-trophied with sports, And westering, questioning settles the sun, On your low-leaded window, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn.
The Hillman is waiting, the light’s in the hall, The pictures of Egypt are bright on the wall, My sweet, I am standing beside the oak stair And there on the landing’s the light on your hair.
By roads “not adopted”, by woodlanded ways, She drove to the club in the late summer haze, Into nine-o’clock Camberley, heavy with bells And mushroomy, pine-woody, evergreen smells.
Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, I can hear from the car park the dance has begun, Oh! Surrey twilight! importunate band! Oh! strongly adorable tennis-girl’s hand!
Around us are Rovers and Austins afar, Above us the intimate roof of the car, And here on my right is the girl of my choice, With the tilt of her nose and the chime of her voice.
And the scent of her wrap, and the words never said, And the ominous, ominous dancing ahead. We sat in the car park till twenty to one And now I’m engaged to Miss Joan Hunter Dunn.
INT. POLICE STATION/CORRIDOR/CID – DAY X (FLASHBACK)
BRIGHT alone in the corridor. He steels himself, comes along the corridor – and enters CID at the THURSDAY OFFICE end.
BRIGHT: If I might have everyone’s attention.
THURSDAY emerges from his office. UNIFORMS arrive.
BRIGHT (cont’d): As you know, since the merging of City and County – together with our sister constabularies to create Thames Valley, the future of Cowley Police station has been in the balance. I have this day received news from Division. The station is to be reduced to a skeleton staff by the 24th of the month and will close – permanently – at midnight on the 31st. Details of future placements will be sent to each of you in due course.
Looks amongst the troops… ENDEAVOUR, STRANGE, FANCY and TREWLOVE — thunderstruck.
BRIGHT (cont’d): Meantime, I know I can rely on each of you to discharge your duty with the same professionalism I have come to so admire these past years. That is all. Carry on.
DAMIAN: And so with ICARUS, it was the end of Bright as we have come to know and love him?
RUSS: Indeed. Again, I think, in the earliest drafts, I was going for a Christmas/December film. Hence the 24th. And… again, this was shot down.
DAMIAN: You know, you had a good thing going here: the CID set, in a similar way to the Rovers Return or the bridge of the Enterprise perhaps, felt almost like a second home for both the characters and the audience – we felt comfortable and liked meeting there with the characters and the actors who play them, and had an almost unprecedented -for a detective mystery TV show at least- magical chemistry. And yet, in name of progress, you take away our comfortable place and split up the family, casting them to the four winds. It’s certainly brave creatively but was it also a little risky?
RUSS: Five series. We could have kept it going unchanged indefinitely, I suppose. But it felt with the historical end of City Police and our move from the base we’d occupied for Series 3, 4 & 5, that it was time to burn everything to the ground. And Fancy – of course. That was key. And that arose from Dakota’s decision to leave. So… All of these things felt like major changes. And they reflected the year – 1968 – turbulence at home and abroad. Closing the station and breaking up the band felt the right thing to do.
DAMIAN: ‘Don’t run boy!’. You’ve told me in the past that you were in and out of education as a child, and also there was a kind teacher who was supportive of your writing. Looking back at your education, or lack thereof, how do you think it shaped the bespoke writer and purveyor of fine manuscripts we have all come to so admire these past years?
RUSS: Lack of formal education. It just wasn’t something on the cards for someone of my socio-economic background – or, as we used to call it in old money, class. My family were of a generation that thought you only went to University if you were going to be a Doctor or a Lawyer. College – we didn’t really have a notion of at all. And attending ‘The Academy of Eyes and Teeth, Love’ from 3 to 16, er… its own grasp of higher education was pretty non-existent. I had an on-set tutor for a couple of years, and that was quite intensive and useful — but under employment/educational law you were only obliged to do three hours of proper schooling a day. No science. Dreadful really. Appalling. But you play the cards you’re dealt, don’t you? I was a very early reader – and I suspect that made up a lot of the shortfall. But it was for the most part reading without structure or design. The library, the library, the library. The library was a palace of wonders.
So – yeh… No proper education to speak of. Just the natural low cunning native to my class. That may sound facetious, but it’s not entirely. I suppose the way it shaped the writing – to return to your original question – is that nobody in a position of academic authority ever told me that such and such was notthe way to do something. Equally, the flipside is that nobody ever said that such and such wasthe way to do something. I suppose it’s why I’m skeptical about the “You Too Can Have a Screenplay Like Mine” snake-oil salesmen. You have to find your own way to it.
But I digress. Look — I’m not proud of a lack of formal education, but I’m not ashamed of it either. Hard to be proud or ashamed about something over which one had no control. It’s just a thing. It made me hungry to know stuff — maybe more hungry than if it had all just been laid out before me. There’s something thrilling about knowing how things work. Whatever it might be. Oh – so this bit of the world fits together with that bit of the world, &c. I just find that beguiling. A puzzle without end. You’re never going to solve it, but each new bit of information deepens your understanding. We have such a short time in existence. So much to know — so little time. And so much of the stuff I’ve picked up along the way has been through work. You know — you do Sharpe or Hornblower or Cadfael and you want to make a good job of it, you’d better start reading around the subject, bone up on it as if preparing for an exam, try to get a handle on the minds and manners of the period. Do your homework. Always. That’s the great joy. My library looks like the library of a lunatic. Things that have no business sitting beside one another – a history of the Delta Blues beside the mechanics of an 18th century sailing ship, and surmounted by a book on poisons. Looks like we got ourselves a reader.
DAMIAN: I take it you’re familiar with the 1968 film, if ?
RUSS: Yes, indeed. Huge admirer of all things Lindsay Anderson. The spirit of Mick Travis has infused quite a bit of Endeavourland along the way. Sam Costin [script editor] and me had some fun with Lindsay Anderson stuff across the first three series. Little nods here and there. Funnily enough – only this week I’ve caught up with an old grognard, the great muso Jeremy Stacey, and we got to talking about when we did Giles Cooper’s play Unman, Wittering and Zigo for Radio 4 in the late 70s, with Gawn Grainger playing Mr.Ebony – we were about 15 or something. There’s a fabulous film of it with David Hemmings and the late and lovely Tony Haygarth – who I was blessed to work with on Between the Lines. And Carolyn (Survivors) Seymour too, before she left for the States, plays Hemmings wife.
Answering this – I realise that I worked with both Hemmings and Carolyn. I did a TV play with Carolyn in the early 70s – written by my hero John Hopkins whose The Offence – directed by Sidney Lument – had a major influence on the vibe of Endeavour ‘69. Only Connect! My Round Britain Quiz/Panini Sticker life. The ‘boys’ though are a hoot. You’ve got Michael Kitchen in there – Lord is it now? Lord Cashman? Fabulous atmos. And great sleight of hand with the school. Like ours, it’s a Frankenstein’s monster. The exteriors here – the interiors there. So – that got drawn on a bit, as did The History Boys; Jennings; Dead Poets Society… anything with that boys’ school thing going on. Having done the girls’ side with NOCTURNE, it felt like it might be fun to do the boys.
if…. (1968)ICARUS
DAMIAN: The headmaster at Coldwater asks if he plays sport and Endeavour replies with the lie, cricket. I wondered if this was your own personal preference in sport or a nod to the other Lewis?
RUSS: Cricket would always be my personal preference — but I went for Cricket because we were shooting in the winter, and the story was set in the winter, and Endeavour would think it a good wheeze to offer up a proficiency in a summer sport, in the hope of avoiding any physical exertion whatsoever.
DAMIAN: And isn’t it funny to see Endeavour finally at the chalkface because I asked if you thought he’d make a good teacher in one of first interviews and later, of course, he confides in Monica with a moped that he’s considering leaving the police to teach?
RUSS: Yes — that certainly played back to his conversation with Ms.Hicks.
DAMIAN: Bright has a line of dialogue ‘The local Detective Inspector and his bagman lost their lives last weekend in a road traffic accident with an articulated lorry’. Knowing the extent to which you plan your future stories and character subplots ahead, I was worried this might be a sly foreshadowing of events yet to come or am I reading too much into things again?
RUSS: Not every question gets an answer. There are things you might infer.
TREWLOVE: Just the one bed, I’m afraid.
ENDEAVOUR: I can take the couch.
TREWLOVE: Don’t be ridiculous. How’s that going to look if anyone comes knocking?
Off ENDEAVOUR: What can Trewlove be suggesting…?
DAMIAN: What was Trewlove suggesting?
RUSS: One would imagine a bolster being involved.
INT. ROSE COTTAGE/LIVING ROOM – NIGHT 4
ENDEAVOUR listening to one of IVORY’s LPs. TREWLOVE paints her toenails.
TREWLOVE: They say – that – when you die, your whole life flashes before your eyes. Do you think that’s true?
ENDEAVOUR: Grim topic for someone painting their toenails, isn’t it?
TREWLOVE: I told you. I like grim. What should a girl talk about, Morse? Ponies? Kittens? Boys?
ENDEAVOUR: I saw your boy this afternoon. He’s got it into his head that us being shacked up here is the perfect opportunity for a torrid affair.
TREWLOVE: But you’re not my type. Oh, Lord. I told him not to get too serious.
ENDEAVOUR: I thought you liked him.
TREWLOVE: I do. He’s desperately sweet. But, we’re both young. We’ve got to put career first right now. Haven’t we?
ENDEAVOUR: A career’s not going to hold you at three in the morning when the wolves come circling.
TREWLOVE: Do they come circling? Morse?
ENDEAVOUR: It’s late. I’ve got to make my bath. I think, if I found someone… All this wouldn’t matter a damn.
DAMIAN: I can’t quite believe I’m actually going to ask this in light of our Casanova debate, but one of the things I regretted about Trewlove’s departure was the fact that we would never get to find if they would or wouldn’t. I’d argue that there was a mutual attraction from the very beginning but had she stayed another year or two, would they have ever got together do you think?
RUSS: It was something we were keen to avoid.
DAMIAN: Despite protests to the contrary, isn’t Endeavour exactly her type?
RUSS: Opposites attract.
DAMIAN: I think they would have made a very fine couple but I was less convinced by her attraction to Fancy. Lovely as he was, would a girl like Trewlove really have had much interest in such a dope?
RUSS: Because the people who should be together always end up together, don’t they?
DAMIAN: Was Endeavour jealous of their relationship or did it simply remind him of his own loneliness?
RUSS: I don’t think he was jealous of them at all. Your latter point – possibly.
DAMIAN: Did Endeavour like Fancy or not?
RUSS: I think Fancy grew on him. But perhaps more important than whether he liked him or not — he felt responsible for him. And Endeavour would blame himself for not having protected him. Also, I suspect that deep down he fears Fancy was in some way trying to impress him. After their last unhappy conversation… Of course Endeavour is going to take all the sins of the world, and the loss of Fancy onto his shoulders – for all his protestations to the contrary.
EXT. SNOOKER HALL – NIGHT 5
Police vehicles. In the lee of the entrance, ENDEAVOUR — shocked to his core – he struggles a smoke to his lips, but his hands are trembling too hard to light it. DOROTHEA…
DOROTHEA: Here.
She lights his smoke. Their eyes meet over the flame.
DOROTHEA (CONT’D): Is it true?
The answer in ENDEAVOUR’s – wounded, thousand yard stare.
DAMIAN: Again, I’ll understand any frustration you might have in my asking the following question given our last interview in which I was complaining about him smoking but why doesn’t Endeavour smoke in the filmed version of this scene?
RUSS: You’d have to ask Shaun and Gordon [Anderson, director]. I’ve no idea. They thought better of it on the floor, presumably.
THURSDAY: I can’t have you pair shooting up the town like it’s the Wild West. Somebody’s going to get hurt…
DAMIAN: Since I know you’re a fan of Westerns, so you will have undoubtedly seen the famous cinematic versions of the Wyatt Earp story such as My Darling Clementine and Gunfight at the O.K. Corral?
RUSS: Yes, indeed.
DAMIAN: And the audience are all waiting with bated breath for the big shoot out?
RUSS: Uh huh.
DAMIAN: So, while I appreciate Endeavour is not a western and Fancy is certainly no cowboy, you sustained a tension throughout six episodes regarding Eddie Nero and other violent rival gangs, and then the anticipated resolution to this which happened to be a bloody shootout occurs offscreen!!! Surely Fancy, and indeed Lewis Peek deserved a better send off than this?
RUSS: Well — you have a choice, don’t you? You either experience the discovery with Endeavour, Thursday and Strange — or you show it, and put the audience ahead of our heroes. Finding out what has happened to Fancy at the same time as his comrades felt the more shocking, brutal and cruel option. I would contend that if you’d known Fancy was in the thick of it, then the moment wouldn’t have had such an impact. I’m more drawn to subverting expectations anyway, and would likely have gone for the least obvious, and most awkward, crunchy option.
DAMIAN: I did like that when Bright asked if Fancy’s family had been notified, Strange replies ‘Devon, Sir. Local boys’re dealing.’ That was an especially nice touch wasn’t it?
RUSS: One for Lewis. We loved and do love him. It’s never easy coming in to something knowing that you’re going to be put to the sword at the end of the run. It was very hard for him, and I did feel for him – but one had to see it through.
A Devonshire Lad
INT. POLICE STATION/BRIGHT’S OFFICE – DAY 6
BRIGHT and TREWLOVE. The end of all things…
BRIGHT: I had hoped to see you as the first female officer in Cowley CID, but our loss is the Yard’s gain. You will do great things there, I’m sure. Great things.
TREWLOVE: Thank you, sir.
BRIGHT: We shall all miss you. I don’t suppose there’s anything one can say..? I’m so frightfully sorry.
TREWLOVE: George was happy here, sir. He particularly admired you.
BRIGHT: His regard was poorly placed, I fear – and woefully served.
TREWLOVE: It wasn’t your fault, sir.
BRIGHT: No, well… The investigation will decide where any blame must fall. (he offers his hand) Good luck, Constable.
TREWLOVE: Thank you for always looking out for me.
BRIGHT: It has been… a privilege.
Trewlove exits.
DAMIAN: It’s typically quite proper for Bright to express his affection for her with a simple handshake but Trewlove could have given him a hug goodbye surely?
RUSS: She could. If they’d wanted to go that way on the floor they would have done. As the cigarette moment outside the snooker hall shows, Director and cast will sometimes take things their own way.
DAMIAN: Well, back to the noble question of whether to hug or not to hug again I’m afraid, after the touching scene where Joan cooks dinner for Thursday because Win has left…
THURSDAY: Whatever went on with you last year… It’s none of my business. I shouldn’t’ve interfered. But it’s what fathers do.
JOAN: It’s what you do.
THURSDAY: I can’t help that. You’re my little girl. Apple of my eye. Always have been. Since the moment you came into the world. Always will be. But it’s your life. I just miss you being in mine. This past twelve months…
JOAN: Oh, Dad.
…the script, albeit not in the filmed version, ends the scene with ‘Hugs’. I remember chastising you for not having Thursday hug Sam as he left for the army and you said something about men of the period being more reserved in the way they show affection, so is it only OK for Thursday to hug his daughter or does he love Joan more than Sam?
RUSS: I’m not quite sure how you get to that conclusion – but no, he doesn’t love Joan more than Sam. But I’d probably contend that fathers and daughters in the period are marginally more likely to hug than fathers and sons.
DAMIAN: I appreciate that Endeavour is obviously the main character but wouldn’t Trewlove have wanted to say goodbye to Bright last and wouldn’t it have been better for her to have her final scene with him in a kind of Wizard of Oz/’I’ll miss you most of all’ sort of way?
RUSS: As Adam West was purportedly fond of telling Burt Ward, ‘The show is called – Batman.’
DAMIAN: The farewell between Endeavour and Trewlove appears as scripted but the following really lovely scene was sadly trimmed due to running time:
THURSDAY waiting. TREWLOVE enters. A moment between them.
THURSDAY: If there was anything I could’ve done. If I could take it back. Me for him.
TREWLOVE: He wouldn’t’ve wanted that. They’ll need you now more than ever. Someone’s got to see them through.
STRANGE comes through.
STRANGE: Off, then, Shirl? Look after yourself, love.
TREWLOVE: You too, Jim.
STRANGE: (off TREWLOVE’S hug) Now, then. You’ll set me off. (a moment) He was a good lad.
TREWLOVE: I know. Look out for Mister Bright. Be kind to him — if he’ll let you. Well…
With a backwards wiggle of her fingers in parting, she exits into the corridor.
DAMIAN: Time, it’s your old archenemy I know, and you’ll undoubtedly find this a vexing question, but Trewlove really did come into her own during series five and I wonder if Dakota would have wanted to leave at all if she was given the material she had last year?
RUSS: Yes — we shot it, but it didn’t make the cut. Regrettably. Broke our hearts to see her go, but we were never going to hold on to DB. Sail on, Silver Girl.
EXT. BRIGHT’S HOUSE – DAY 6
30s Mock Tudor. BRIGHT – in civvies – trimming his privets. He sees: ENDEAVOUR.
BRIGHT: Morse. Good heavens.
CUT TO:
INT. BRIGHT’S HOUSE – DAY 6
Decorated in Late English Desperate vernacular. Oh, chintzy-chintzy cheeriness, half-dead, and half-alive… Between the wars. Punkah-Poona-on-the-Hill. BRIGHT ushers ENDEAVOUR in.
BRIGHT: Mrs. Bright is out, I’m afraid. Bridge circle. I think. May I offer you a drink? I generally have a lime-juice and gin about now.
ENDEAVOUR: Thank you, sir.
BRIGHT: Yes. Well, I’ll just go and, er… wash my hands.
BRIGHT exits. ENDEAVOUR takes in his surroundings. BRIGHT’s life arranged in photographs around the walls. The young subaltern in India before the war. Wedding pictures. Simla…
On a side-board a few framed photographs of a young girl. Babe in arms – toddler – scowling Prince Valiant haired tomboy in khaki shorts. A smiling HOUSE SERVANT looking on. And then… nothing. A sepia promise of beauty; unrealised.
BRIGHT: Dulcie. Our daughter. Sweet little thing.
Behind BRIGHT’s eyes, a world of painful memory. The sudden descent into fever. Tubercular meningitis. The Doctor ‘Up-Country’. A terrible week-long suffering. Nothing to be done. A woman, deranged by grief, howling in the night. All of it contained in the one simple phrase.
BRIGHT (CONT’D): The Tropics.
As well to argue with God. BRIGHT falls to fixing drinks.
BRIGHT (CONT’D): So what’s this all about?
ENDEAVOUR: Ballistics prove George Fancy was shot by someone who got away from the Snooker Hall. His killer is still at large.
BRIGHT: Well — presumably that will be passed to the investigating officer.
ENDEAVOUR: He was our colleague.
BRIGHT: And we will mourn him. I’m on indefinite leave. It’s out of my hands. Nothing to be done. Not what one would wish, but there we are. (brings DRINKS across) Your very good health. Fresh lime, you see. That’s the trick of it.
ENDEAVOUR frustrated. BRIGHT in some private hell.
DAMIAN: Private hell. A world of painful memory. All bloody good meat and potato stuff that actors love to play with and explore. And yet, it’s been a long time coming and I know that the confines of screen time has been a source of frustration for Anton Lesser. While I understand the reasons for this, what I don’t understand is why, apart from a initial letter you wrote to him outlining Bright’s past (the Viscount Montgomery of Alamein inspiration and Betjeman’s A Subaltern’s Love Song: ‘Six o’clock news… lime juiceand gin’ to name but a few examples), why you haven’t shared information on Bright’s future. In fact, Anton was completely unaware of many of the character developments for Bright over series five and six until he read them in the scripts. Rather than risk key players losing interest in their parts and possibly leaving the show, why don’t you share all your extremely detailed and insightful plans for the characters with the actors who play them?
RUSS: Because plans change. Having marched Anton up the hill only to march him back down it a couple of times now — I’m reluctant to tell anyone anything that’s in my design just in case it doesn’t happen. But believe me – every line, every scene an actor loses in production or in the cut… it’s tough – because you feel for them, and you wouldn’t have written the scene if you didn’t feel it warranted inclusion.
Look – here’s how it works. You write a thing. People ask for additional material for a multiplicity of reasons. You write the requested material. And as often as not, the stuff you care most deeply about – the stuff that made you want to tell that story that way in the first place gets squeezed out by the new material. That’s just how it is. There’s a lot of moving parts. A lot of people asking for changes to plot or character beats. It’s your job to square the circle. You hold on to what you can – salvage the rest. If you can’t take a creative punishment beating every day… then you’re in the wrong business.
INT. POLICE STATION/CID – DAY 9
CID stripped bare. THURSDAY in his office, boxing his last bits. ENDEAVOUR and STRANGE watch removal men cart off the last FILING CABINETS. BRIGHT enters. ENDEAVOUR – reacts.
ENDEAVOUR: Sir?
THURSDAY emerges from his office.
BRIGHT: That’s the last of it, is it?
THURSDAY: Yes, sir.
BRIGHT: Well. I just stopped by to wish you all good luck.
A MURMUR of ‘Thanks’ from ENDEAVOUR, THURSDAY and STRANGE.
BRIGHT (CONT’D): When I arrived here three years ago, I had such high hopes. What an ignominious end I have led you to. I shall resign, of course.
THURSDAY: Sir…
BRIGHT: I failed him. I failed my men. The station gone. My brightest and best cast to the four winds. And all is brought to ruin.
Cometh the hour. The one true friend…
STRANGE: Bollocks to that.
THURSDAY: Sergeant…
STRANGE: No, sir. I won’t hear it. We might be down, but we’re not out. Not yet. Not by a long chalk. I’ll be damned if this is how it ends. We’ll have justice for him, sir. Whatever it takes.
THURSDAY: Jim’s right, sir. They can call us Thames Valley till the cows come home, but wherever we wash up, we’re City men – each one of us. To our boots. To the last.
BRIGHT: So few.
ENDEAVOUR: Enough to give him justice.
THURSDAY: We’ll find the bastard, sir.
BRIGHT: Your word on it.
THURSDAY: My oath.
STRANGE: And mine.
They look to ENDEAVOUR.
ENDEAVOUR: For George.
DAMIAN: Honestly, if I could have only risen from my sofa, stood up and joined the four musketeers there and then… Rousing stuff indeed. I was a little confused though, why is Strange ‘the one true friend’?
RUSS: George Fancy’s. Jim Strange was fond of the lad. There is something very straight about Jim Strange. He might not have the book learning, but when the chips are down, he’s the one man you want to see coming round the corner.
DAMIAN: Will all the mystery surrounding George’s death be resolved by the last film of series six and what can you say about Degüello?
RUSS: Yeh – I’d hope so. I can say almost nothing about Degüello.
DAMIAN: You say almost nothing. Any fragrant ladies? Plot vertigo perhaps? Nothing, really?
RUSS: There was something that we thought about for ‘68 – but for reasons which will become clear, we didn’t do it. But it is an ending. For good or ill.
INT. POLICE STATION/CID – DAY 9
ENDEAVOUR alone. He looks to FANCY’S desk.
FANCY (VOICE OVER): Your desk. Sorry. I was told to wait. Fancy…
TREWLOVE (V.O.) There is a woman under the uniform, Morse. Just not a stupid one.
JAKES (V.O.): Wotcher!
Ghosts fled. ENDEAVOUR empties his drawer. A the bottom — his PHOTOFIT of JOAN from (Series 4). A moment on ENDEAVOUR. He exits CID.
DAMIAN: I liked this very much. Why was the scene changed to Endeavour instead simply taking a moment and then turning the light switch off and leaving CID in darkness?
RUSS: I’d refer you to the answer I gave some questions ago. My original ending for S5 was very different, and among the greatest regrets is that I could not carry the day.
DAMIAN: You’re not going to elaborate further on this very different ending that was among your greatest regrets?
RUSS: An Endeavour Joan moment. More I cannot say. But it was a beautiful thing. At least, I thought so.
DAMIAN: You mentioned in our first interview this year that there was no danger of running out of stories and that Damien Timmer feels that the show could move into the early seventies quite happily. And, if the network want another series -they will have almost certainly made up their mind by the time this interview is posted- you won’t be hanging the Winchester over the fireplace or turning in your tin star just yet?
RUSS: As you know, I’m bound to silence by fearful oaths.
DAMIAN: When we do say goodbye to Oxford’s brightest and best for the final time though, and regardless to other shows you write -you will do great things, I’m sure- would you be happy to be known and remembered as the chap who wrote Endeavour?
RUSS: Don’t imagine I’ll be remembered at all – by any apart from those who know me. And quite happy to be forgot.
DAMIAN: Russ, thank you very much indeed. See you down the road?
For me, as an aficionado of Horror and German Expressionist Cinema, I know that some of the most potent screen images come from those early silent films such as Cesare abducting and dragging his prey across the oblique cityscape in The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (1920), the shadow of Count Orlok slowly ascending the staircase in Nosferatu (1922) and the thrillingly iconic creation of Maria in Metropolis (1927). These films, along with many others directed by cinematic pioneers like FW Murnau and Fritz Lang, inspired and influenced the Hollywood Horror Film and paved the way for the Universal Monster Cycle of the thirties and forties among other masterpieces of the genre.
And yet, when Universal first resurrected a host of classic gothic literary monsters for the sound era, they were reluctant to fully embrace the transition from silent film to talkies and the art of the music score. Many films frequently had music over the opening and closing title cards but anything more was usually restricted to diegetic (source) music such as if a character was at a concert, playing a record or listening to the radio. Indeed, their defining productions of Dracula and Frankenstein (both 1931) scream out for a full orchestral soundtrack. However, when James Whale was persuaded to direct a sequel, The Bride of Frankenstein (1935), this time the monster demanded a music score and it remains one of the greatest examples of the art of scoring a horror picture ever composed.
Given my affection for classic monster movies and their music, I was most intrigued to hear that the second episode of series five of Endeavour would feature a Mummy! I’d already met and later interviewed composer Matthew Slater and so I was obviously aware of the virtuoso and genius inventiveness that has immeasurably enhanced the mystery, the thrills and the romance of Endeavour. But how would Matt approach scoring an episode about an aged horror icon visiting Oxford to promote his latest cinematic tale of terror? I’m very pleased to have the opportunity of interviewing Matt again to talk about the making of CARTOUCHE and the horror film scores that have inspired him…
The monster demands a mate! And a music score…
The monster demands a music score! – An exclusive interview with composer Matthew Slater
DAMIAN: Matt, I’m thinking back to the first truly great and influential Horror/Fantasy film scores and two obvious examples immediately spring to mind that I’d like to discuss, Max Steiner’s King Kong (1933) and Franz Waxman’s The Bride of Frankenstein (1935), unless you can think of anything that predates these?
MATT: Considering that just a little bit before those dates we were still in the land of silent movies, I think you’re probably right. I’m sure there were some fantastic scores improvised by the musicians playing along at the time, but yes, I’d agree with you over Steiner and Waxman being the big boys. Or, in films like Dracula in 1931, no bespoke score was recorded, and classics were used instead, which could also bring equal power and emotion to a movie. A concept not foreign to Kubrick.
DAMIAN: Let’s deal with Max Steiner first who, I think, composed over a hundred and fifty scores including music for Gone With the Wind (1939) Casablanca (1942), The Big Sleep (1946), The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (1948) and The Searchers (1956) to name but a few. However, would you say that it was King Kong that established him as one of early Hollywood’s most important composers?
MATT: I think King Kong certainly had a significant impact on Steiner’s career by its sheer Wagnerian size, much like Kong’s stature in fact. His use of themes and leitmotifs which have become commonplace these days would also play an extensive part in the success of the film. Bernard Hermann and Eric Korngold were also around at the same time and writing some fantastic scores. The list could go on, but depends on whether we’re just talking about the horror and fantasy genres at that time.
DAMIAN: As a composer, can you explain the impact that the score had on audiences back then and why it continues to be so influential today in terms of elevating the status and respectability of the monster and fantasy genres?
MATT: If I knew that, I’d be John Williams!! I think therein lies the answer though. It’s not always the tune that bears the most importance in a film, its what it is designed to accompany on screen and how to emote the audience at that point. That’s the genius of people like Rozsa, Steiner, Waxman, Hermann, Goldsmith and Williams. Matching the tune to that moment in time.
DAMIAN: Can you highlight some its defining musical features so that a layman such as myself without any musical knowledge or training can go back to the score and understand its monumental achievements?
MATT: Simply put, it’s the operatic feel, nature and enormity of the score which often gets that Wagnerian label. A nod to Tristan und Isolde probably goes a little way to help that association with Steiner’s King Kong. Perhaps his use of unconventional harmony might also go to make that bond between the two composers. Again, it’s not necessarily the notes or harmony themselves that particularly define a composer but more their application and placement in film, opera or ballet. Hermann’s Cape Fear and those descending intervals for instance. Inseparable. John William’s three-note Jaws motif, inexorably linked to the fish with the big teeth.
DAMIAN: And Franz Waxman, another prolific and groundbreaking Hollywood composer with credits such as Rebecca, The Philadelphia Story (both 1940), Suspicion (1941), Sunset Boulevard (1950), and Rear Window (1954), to what extent did he advance the parameters for the potential of horror film music even further than Steiner with his sophisticated and multifaceted score for Bride?
MATT: I think all composers draw upon each other for the development of their respective genres, it’s almost impossible not to. Much like score styles go in and out of fashion all the time. Look at the recent moves we’ve had towards scores become a more sound design element to films rather than having distinctive musical context and harmonic structure. I’m not saying they are lesser scores by any means at all, just a fashion, as were electronic scores in the 70’s and 80’s. Even orchestral scores have gone in and out of appeal over the life of cinema and TV. I think the question might require a somewhat lengthy essay on the matter, so I’ll thin it down a little if you don’t object.
When it comes to comedy and horror the music plays an enormously important role. Take the score away and see how well defined those moments become. As I’ve mentioned before, for me, it’s the application of the music rather than the specifics of thematic, harmonic and textual content. As important as those facets are, the genius is also in the placement.
DAMIAN: Personally, I’d go as far as to say that the music to the final scenes with the creation of the Bride, with the constant thumping heartbeat-like repetition and the chimes evoking wedding bells, is the single most thrilling and exhilarating moment in the history of horror scores. Again, can you highlight some of the tricks the composer uses here to create both the horror and pathos of the scene?
MATT: Waxman’s use of low ostinati, low woods, timpani and brass give that feeling of doom and impending horror giving way to the full slush and pathos of high string chord portomenti patterns. Tubular bells and harp give that bridal feel all within those moments after “she’s alive!!”. A hint of Wagner’s Bridal Chorus perhaps in some perverse way?
DAMIAN: I don’t know if anyone else has ever thought of this but Frankenstein’s monster meets the blind man who is playing Schubert’s Ave Maria, do you think given James Whale’s celebrated dark sense of humour, that this was a joke because the little girl drowned by the monster in the first Frankenstein was called Maria?
MATT: I’ll pop along to my next local pub quiz, put that on the list of questions and get back to you.
DAMIAN: Endeavour’s ears may well be pricking up right about now because both the music of Steiner and Waxman have elements of Wagner as you’ve mentioned which might also be viewed as an extension of the German Romantic tradition and also the fact that so much opera has embraced elements of the supernatural such as scenes incorporating gods, monsters and magic. To what extent do you think operatic terms like Ombra and Sturm und Drang can be applied to the scores for Kong and Bride?
MATT: Take the picture away from Kong and Bride, add a few lyrics, a stage, singers – arguably not then operas and therefore applicable? Joking aside, I think you’re probably right; they could well apply. Demons and misunderstood creatures feature in score in terms of horror, pathos and misconstrued perceptions.
DAMIAN: In addition to Kong and Bride, I’ve come up with a list of what I consider to be some of the greatest or influential music scores in either the horror, thriller or monster film genre: Dracula (1958, James Bernard), Vertigo (1958, Bernard Herrmann), Psycho (1960, Herrmann), Cape Fear (1962, Herrmann), Jaws (1975, John Williams), The Omen (1976, Jerry Goldsmith), The Silence of the Lambs (1991, Howard Shore) and Bram Stoker’s Dracula (1992, Wojciech Kilar). What would you add to this list?
MATT: You’ve left me some thinking to do as we have a very similar list – although with my last choice it’s a combo between score and use of songs that works so well. The Thing (1982, John Carpenter), Clash Of The Titans (1981, Laurence Rosenthal), Alien (1979, Jerry Goldsmith), Arrival (2016, Johann Johannsson), Poltergeist (1982, Jerry Goldsmith), Presumed Innocent (1990, John Williams) and Guardians Of The Galaxy 2 (2017, Michael Giacchino).
DAMIAN: I suppose after the Universal Horror Cycle, the other most significant series of classic monster reinventions arrived on the screen courtesy of Hammer and although they employed various other great composers such as Tristram Cary, Don Ellis, Christopher Gunning, Laurie Johnson, Carlo Martelli, Mario Nascimbene, Franz Reizenstein, Harry Robinson, David Whitaker and Malcolm Williamson, to what extent do you think James Bernard was responsible for the sound we now associate with the studio and did you watch or listen to the soundtracks of any of their Mummy series as research for CARTOUCHE?
MATT: Subconsciously, who knows. But no, I didn’t listen to anything before scoring CARTOUCHE.
DAMIAN: I think your music for Endeavour far exceeds the expectations of any recent television drama series, but I was completely blown away by the music for CARTOUCHE – especially the ‘March of the Mummy’ theme. It was simply stunning and completely indistinguishable from a big-budget Hollywood score. Tell me about some of your first ideas in response to Russ’ script, the retro sound, the orchestration and choice of instruments… Matt, just bloody tell me everything please?
MATT: Thank you so much! There was so very little time to score those moments as I initially thought we were going to clear something original for use. I think I wrote those moments the day before the recording session. I’ve always been a big believer of putting the music budget on the screen, so since I’ve been scoring Endeavour, we’re using the size of the orchestra not uncommon in feature films. Mammoth Screen’s excellent appreciation of the importance of music in Endeavour has been a significant factor in what we can now achieve. Russ’ characters always seem to conjure their themes almost instantly. The strength of screenwriting helps enormously with music.
DAMIAN: Was there a guide music score for this film?
MATT: Some, but with the more recent films we’ve been using far less guide music than ever before which allows for a much broader scope of music context, remit and creativity.
DAMIAN: I know Russ is obviously a huge enthusiast but was the director, Andy Wilson, also a fan of the horror genre and can you tell us a little bit about working with him during the spotting session?
MATT: You’d have to ask Andy about that; however, he was an excellent director with which to collaborate. Allowing me to do what I needed to do, told me what he liked and didn’t, I revised then we achieved completion — all in a matter of hours at the review process in my studio. A joy.
DAMIAN: During our first interview, we discussed the influence of working with Barrington for over twenty years and the extent to which you balance honouring and respecting the musical heritage of Morse, Lewis and Endeavour, while also enjoying the freedom to creatively pursue your own or new styles and tastes. Do you agree, particularly with series six, that you seem to be increasingly experimental (APOLLO is perhaps a good example of this?) in extending this soundscape while still remaining consistent with music universe of Endeavour?
MATT: The path of now scoring the majority of Endeavour has been laden with many challenges. I’d rather not go into details over the whys and wherefores. However, what I will say is that I’ve slowly been able to make Endeavour more my style while still hopefully keeping the viewers feeling like they aren’t suddenly watching a complete different series; but we have moved on and are developing the sound of Endeavour while still nodding to the Oxford history.
Absolutely. Endeavour is a robust set of stories and characters and constantly evolving plots. Score wise we need to reflect that; otherwise, the music becomes static. What I try to do is add a score personality to each episode, so if you heard the score in isolation, you could probably guess the film from which it came. Thank you for noticing!
DAMIAN: You also told me that working on each film presents its own excitement and challenges as every film is so different in terms of the musical demands. Which film of series six have you found to be the most challenging or demanding this year?
MATT: Having far less guide score this year has made the whole process more comfortable and more creative. I’m very fortunate to be trusted to that extent, and it’s a huge honour to work with Damien, Deanne, Russ, Helen, Shaun in his capacity as director, Johnny and Jamie plus and all the cast and crew. It’s a dream to be part of such a family. I have to mention Abbey Road, Air Studios, The London Metropolitan Orchestra, Accorder/Peer, Paul Golding and everyone that’s part of making the music work. It’s a massive team effort.
DAMIAN: Finally, as I think I’ve mentioned to you before, I own all the Morse albums that have ever been released in addition to the ones for Lewis and Endeavour but I’ve played these in rotation every time I start work on new interviews with the cast and crew which I began in 2013 – I need something new! I’m sure like myself, there are many fans who would like to buy the COMPLETE scores from EVERY series of Endeavour. What are the chances of this, or at least a highlights album, actually happening?
MATT: I’m always overwhelmed about people asking for the music, and it’s something I’d love to be able to provide. We’ll do our best to make something happen. Watch this space.
DAMIAN: Matt, thank you very much indeed.
MATT: It’s always a pleasure, thank you for such challenging questions!!!
DAMIAN: For the first few years at least, although it was always wonderful when Joan did pop up, she’d only make the occasional appearance opening the door for Endeavour and they’d flirt while he waiting for Thursday, that sort of thing, but now, well, you’ve become an integral part of the show and your character is now inseparable from the Morse mythology. To what extent were you aware of this, were there little clues in the scripts along the way or was it simply a lovely surprise?
SARA: I think at the beginning, there was no intention to have Joan as prominent a part of the show as she has grown to be (Russell may disagree with me here!). The Thursday family seemed to, in my mind, play the role of fleshing out Fred’s story, helping paint the picture of a family man. And for Morse, the Thursdays were a reminder of everything he was missing – family and companionship. But as the series progressed, there were clues that all the Thursdays were destined for bigger standalone stories. I remember very vividly reading one of the stage directions in HOME [S1:E4] where Morse walks Joan home, the stage directions eluded to a longevity between the characters. But nothing is ever a certain, things change, so every time I read the scripts, there is always an element of surprise.
DAMIAN: You mentioned in our previous interview that the directors of the early episodes often steered you towards light-hearted flirting and friendly teasing. I’m wondering if more recent directors now use words like melancholy, mournful and crestfallen?
SARA: Working with lots of different directors is a joy, they bring different energies and qualities to the world we are creating. There has been a bit of a leaning toward melancholy but I’d say it’s a natural progression due to storylines and character ‘baggage’ rather than a steer.
DAMIAN: Russ is very good at setting up grand and dramatic cliffhangers such as the one to series four where we discover Joan is pregnant. I wonder then, given it’s frequently the case that the opening to the following series is set months later, if you find it a little disappointing that you don’t get to explore the immediate aftermath of such scenarios as an actor?
SARA: I would have loved to have played some of those juicy moments!
DAMIAN: I found the rooftop scene from PASSENGER (S5:E3) to be one of the most beautiful and powerful of any series of Endeavour. Can you tell me a little bit about shooting the scene with Shaun?
SARA: Jim [Field Smith, director] was wonderful to work with.The film he created was visually stunning and had real heart. I discussed the scene with Shaun first off. It’s always nice to make sure we are on the same page. Jim allowed us to be free with our thoughts and choices which worked for us as Shaun and I tend to just see what happens in the moment. It was a beautifully simple scene that just lifted off the page.
DAMIAN: It was just so beautifully written by Russ and the two of you played the scene to perfection but why do you think Joan then tried to set Endeavour up with Claudine?
SARA: As I’ve just said, Shaun and I tend to have quite a bit of chat before we tackle a scene. This sometimes involves us scratching our heads as to why they don’t just get together (yes, we can get as frustrated as the audience!). I remember reading the scene in the readthrough. I was sat next to Abigail Thaw, she turned to me and said, ‘she’s testing him’. That thought played on my mind. Would he be willing to go with someone else? Could he be happier with someone else? I think it goes part of the way explaining the Claudine situation. I also think it has to do with trying to make a fresh start, trying to move on. That doesn’t always mean it’s right or not fraught with emotion.
DAMIAN: Given that he’s only just left her up there on the roof seconds previously, do you think that Endeavour’s immediate attraction to Claudine when he lights her cigarette somewhat undermined his feelings for Joan then?
SARA: The fact that he instantly hooks up with Claudine, doesn’t bode well for Joan and Morse being star crossed lovers! But then we have to wonder why it’s so immediate and why it is indeed with Claudine. It screams of someone whose been burned. But then I reckon I’m pretty biased!
DAMIAN: And then when Claudine leaves him, we have the scene from QUARTET (S5:E5) where they are standing outside her flat and she invites him in for coffee. Was Joan really inviting Endeavour in for something more than coffee so soon after his break up with Claudine?
SARA: This one is certainly up for debate… In my mind, it’s come in for coffee and sort this out once and for all! I think his decision not to come in gives her the impetus to draw a line, which is why we then see her refuse his offer.
DAMIAN: There was another lovely scene which was cut but some of the dialogue was reused again for this latest series and will hopefully find its place this time but doesn’t it reveal Strange to be a much more sensitive, perceptive and insightful man than anyone gives him credit for?
SARA: Sadly this scene is again, cut from the series. We couldn’t film it due to my other commitments.
DAMIAN: In the scene from APOLLO (S6:E2) why do you think Endeavour is so mocking and seemingly resentful of Joan trying to better herself with a career and becoming more cultured?
SARA: We loved filming this scene, a new side of their relationship to explore. Russ’ stage directions read ‘if he can’t have her, he must hurt her’. But for Joan, it’s no less hurtful for that! Using his intellectual superiority is a low blow and fairly uninventive for Morse.
DAMIAN: What was Shaun like to work with as a director?
SARA: It was weirdly the most natural thing. Nobody knows our story better, so to have him in control was the easiest of transitions. I knew he would do a fantastic job, his sets were warm and inclusive, and his passion, creativity and drive was there in abundance. The only thing I missed was our chats between takes. Being number one on the call sheet and directing doesn’t leave much time for nattering.
DAMIAN: I’m obviously not asking for any details but how far ahead do you know what Russ has planned regarding Joan and Endeavour?
SARA: Well we know there will be no white wedding, no surprise there. Russ has hinted he’s already written the final encounter, but what happens between then and now is anyone’s guess.
DAMIAN: Thursday obviously loves Win and his kids deeply but I suspect he also loves Endeavour as a trusted fellow police officer, a friend and perhaps even a surrogate son in light of the death of Cyril Morse back in HOME (S1:E4), and yet while I suspect Win might approve, given Endeavour’s forlorn and morose nature, I wonder how Thursday would react if they ever became a couple?
SARA: I’ve always thought he would be nothing but pleased. Morse is as dependable as they come and Joan’s energy could help balance out those darker moments.
DAMIAN: I asked in our first interview how you would describe Joan’s attraction to Endeavour and you said, ‘I think Joan is very intrigued by Morse. She is not one for the ordinary and Endeavour appears to be everything out of the ordinary. They have something they can’t put their finger on. But surely that’s the best kind attraction, the indescribable.’ I wonder if your view has changed at all since then and the extent to which recent character developments for both Joan and Endeavour have made their relationship more describable or perhaps exactly the opposite?
SARA: Their feelings are much deeper for each other due to all they’ve been through, but in that process, so much more complicated. Perhaps now, they know too much…
