An exclusive Endeavour interview with Abigail Thaw
Interview copyright © Damian Michael Barcroft 2023
Please note that this interview contains spoilers for those who haven’t seen the final episode.
DAMIAN: Although you were just a kid in the early 70s – indeed, I remember you previously mentioned to me playing football in the streets and sitting outside pubs with a coke and a packet of crisps while the adults lived it up inside – you probably still remember the threat of power cuts and energy rationing, mass protests, trade union marches and strikes – not to mention the Cold War and possible nuclear attacks. Here we are in 2023 and much of the same is happening once again. As a society, we’ve not really done very well have we?
ABIGAIL: No. It’s depressing to me to see how many of our great services are in need of appreciation, respect and above all a decent living wage. It is extraordinary that the people who keep this country going are vilified and blamed for disrupting our lives. They are asking to be able to feed their families and live a decent life in exchange for enabling us to live ours.
It seems every profession that keeps this country going is at risk. These are essential to our society. These people are risking their jobs and livelihood out of desperation, not a whim. They don’t get up in the morning and think ‘How can we mess with everyone’s day?’ They’re saying, ‘we cannot survive!’ So if you still want an NHS, trains, legal aid, education, Royal Mail then help us. Then we can her you.
It’s called society. We need these workers more than ever. And it’s disgusting to me that the government doesn’t engage and do something about it. It makes me ashamed.
DAMIAN: In terms of life experience, Dorothea Frazil has seen it all including the war in Korea, and yet, the audience is yet to see all of her as a much more complicated character than screen time sometimes allows. If there’s one issue that constantly reoccurs throughout my interviews with many of the regular cast throughout the years, it’s that so much of their scenes that reveal fascinating insights into their characters are often cut. Would you, like me and I imagine millions of worldwide fans of the show, support the idea of re-editing episodes so that the deleted scenes could finally be included?
ABIGAIL: Oh goodness, now wouldn’t that be nice! I would love to see everyone else’s personal journey. We’ll have to wait and see on that one.
DAMIAN: In addition to fans desperately wanting to learn more about their favourite characters, for me at least, one of the reasons I’d really like to see more is because I’d love to see how Dorothea interacts with other characters. So while we obviously often see her with Endeavour, and to a slightly lesser extent, Thursday and Strange, wouldn’t it be wonderful to see her interact more with other characters such as Max and Win for example?
ABIGAIL: Well, yes. As you say, there were scenes that Russ wrote with Win and Max. I remember in particular a nice one with Win where we share a cigarette when Joan is inside the bank as a hostage. You see Win the mother letting go and having a fag through sheer terror and Dorothea, childless but empathetic. Two women.
And I remember a scene with Max where we met up in the pub… happy times!
DAMIAN: I feel sure that Dorothea would get on famously with Max as they sat gossiping and drinking together – indeed, I’m still hoping for that spin-off for the two of you! – but what do you think Win would make of her if they spent more time together as they’re quite different women aren’t they?
ABIGAIL: I suspect there would be a little disapproval from Win and a little eye-rolling from Dorothea! But I would imagine they would get each other’s number fairly quickly and a mutual respect. Win has followed the rules, to a degree. She would be familiar to Dorothea in that age. Win’s done what she was brought up to do but also found her own personal path with the dancing lessons and getting a job. And I’ve always thought Dorothea does what she was brought up to do as well.
She is an anomaly from that period but I doubt she could be where she is if she didn’t have a strong sense of self. And that would have come from her upbringing. I sort of imagined a father who was ambitious for her and maybe wanted a boy initially but did what he could with a girl! He encouraged learning, determination and fearlessness. So she’s either done so much because of running from trauma and never feeling good enough or the reverse and feeling she can do anything. That’s a whole new story!
DAMIAN: We’ve had a couple of slight references to Dorothea dating and a less subtle relationship with Kent Finn which kind of crashed and burned. I remember you once telling me that as the series has progressed, Dorothea was a ‘little older’, ‘a little sadder’ but also ‘perhaps a little more hopeful.’ I’d hate to think of her as always living alone, drinking and smoking far too much like someone else I could mention. Do you think Dorthea is hopeful that she’ll meet someone special someday?
ABIGAIL: Hmm. Maybe. I think she has more optimism than Endeavour. Sometimes I think her advice to him is from the depths of her own experience: don’t turn out like me. On the other hand she knows how to have a good time and grabs it with both hands. There was a scene we couldn’t shoot for various reasons at the beginning of film 1 of Series 9 where they got me a beautiful vintage YSL suit to wear to the concert. It was fabulous and we shot a day in it. And I thought, ‘yeah, she’s still optimistic. She’s still got it going on!’ But she was also at the concert alone, so… I dunno.
DAMIAN: If Dorothea was a real person who happened to be a friend of yours and you were trying to fix her up on a date, how would you describe her?
ABIGAIL: Hah! Tricky one, let’s see: Opinionated. Good sense of humour. Laughs at herself but never at the work. Could probably drink you under the table. Can talk about pretty much any subject. Sassy. No games. Don’t expect her to cook you a meal but she’ll happily eat yours.
DAMIAN: I remember interviewing Charlotte Mitchell, one of the previous costume designers working on the show while it was still set in the 60s and I asked her about finding the right clothes for your character and she said, ‘Abigail has the most amazing figure. She is wonderful to dress and has to show an element of power dressing, yet she is still an attractive woman. In the 60s women would have been looked down on if they didn’t wear skirts in the office, and even though she is the boss so could flaunt these rules, there are standards she likes to keep up. She has a silhouette of the early 60s due to her age and formality which is a joy to design.’
How would you describe Dorothea’s look and how do you think it has changed as the show reaches 1972?
ABIGAIL: Charlotte is very kind. What a lovely thing to say. Costume fittings are always a case of subduing your self-consciousness and embracing the character. I think the look has softened as she gets into the 1970s. As has my figure! I love wearing trousers. But they don’t love me!
DAMIAN: Do you like to have any input into what Dorothea might or might not wear?
ABIGAIL: Oh yes. We have been very lucky with our costume designers and I have a lot of input. There will always be a discussion beforehand and then the designer will send suggestions and get the general palette but you discover the final look together as you try things on. Often it’s a complete surprise as to what works and looks and feels right. I like to be comfortable as Abigail.
And I like as little fuss as possible – tricky when you have hair that needs taming for the 1960s. It was always a battle of the hairspray can with poor, long-suffering Irene Napier. But as Charlotte says, you have to remember the times you’re portraying and the character, so you need to be reminded you can’t rock up in jeans and flats. Not when you’re running a newspaper as a woman in the 1960s.
DAMIAN: Have you kept any of Dorothea’s clothes or anything else as souvenirs from the show?
ABIGAIL: Maybe… Perhaps an aforementioned suit. And a newspaper…
DAMIAN: As you were about to do the read-throughs for the final three scripts, what were you looking for or perhaps hoping to find in your final scenes?
ABIGAIL: I really wasn’t expecting anything. At one point I thought I might have been killed off. So it was a surprise to find I was in all three episodes. The older Morse never mentions a Dorothea as far as I’m aware although you’d have to ask Russ.
I was delighted that she is so jolly at the wedding. That she’s dancing and flirting and having a good time. And, she catches the bouquet! So that’s pretty optimistic. Maybe she meets the person of her dreams after all…
DAMIAN: Beyond your character, what were your impressions of the script more generally for the very final episode and also how Russ might reconcile and explain why John Thaw’s Morse never mentioned Fred Thursday?
ABIGAIL: I loved the script. It made me cry. Especially that image of the jags, echoing the first episode and symbolising everything. Russ is brilliant at doing so much with so little. And the joy of the wedding. Everyone having fun. Except the utter tragedy of it. And no, Morse will not mention Thursday again because he broke his heart. There are few grey areas for Morse. He is protecting Thursday and protecting himself by trying to forget him. Which we all know is impossible. And Thursday is the father of the love of his life. Who has also broken his heart. The whole Thursday family is a minefield!
DAMIAN: And how do you think the final episode of Endeavour compares to the final episode of Inspector Morse?
ABIGAIL: I couldn’t begin to compare. They are very different animals. With Endeavour we know it is leading on to something else.
DAMIAN: This is Your Life was referenced in the previous series with Lewis Macleod playing Eamonn Andrews and I couldn’t help but wonder what you remember about your appearance on the show in 1981 when your father was handed the big red book?
ABIGAIL: I remember a lot. In fact I did it twice, the first time with Sheila. I was a very self-conscious teenager with dad’s so it wasn’t an altogether happy memory but it was fascinating. But that’s another story…
DAMIAN: Having spent time in Oxford as a child when visiting your mother who was a mature student there and involved with marches and meetings for the Women’s Movement during the early 70s and given that both your father and yourself have obviously spent so much time filming on location there, do you feel sentimental towards Oxford or emotionally tied to the city in any way after all these years?
ABIGAIL: Absolutely. I love it there. There’s a very strong connection. And my stepfather and younger brothers went there. I should say, I didn’t just visit my mother, I lived with her. I went to nursery school while she was there.
And, I was at the first Women’s Liberation conference that Russell wrote about in series 7. There’s a film called Misbehaviour staring Keira Knightly as my mother set at that time. Worth a watch!
DAMIAN: I don’t know if it’s because I’m such a geek or because I care so much about the characters – of course, I might be guilty on both counts! – but I’ve frequently pestered Russ with ridiculously pedantic questions about Dorothea such as how she got into journalism and why she stopped working as a war correspondent and author.
Although he has told me that he thinks he remembers invoking some of the great women war correspondents of World War II with you – particularly Lee Miller in Hitler’s Bathtub as a possible inspiration in Dorothea’s life – he also mentioned to me that he never went into her hinterland any more than one went into the childhood history of Jake Gittes (Jack Nicholson in Chinatown) or Harry Morgan (Humphrey Bogart) or his rummy companion (Eddie played by Walter Brennan) in To Have and Have Not.
Furthermore, Russ mentioned most recently about not filling in more detail than necessary, which gives the audience room to wonder. Do you think that this approach not only achieves this but also gives you more freedom as an actor?
ABIGAIL: Yes, I think it does. I love Russ’s cultural references. There are few as well read or well versed on culture, old and new, as Russ. He knows not to burden an actor when it’s the long game. Otherwise you can be held back on potential plot twists or character traits. And that would jar with the audience too. It’s fun to enjoy your own fantasy life for the character you’re playing.
I read a lot of Martha Gelhorn’s work to inspire me. And of course, I did always have a book of Lee Miller’s photos by my bed when we were filming, but I never spoke to Russ about the finer details of his own inspiration for the character.
DAMIAN: And, although he’s not necessarily comparing Dorothea to them, but rather using them as examples, isn’t it interesting that he’s referenced such iconic characters played by Academy Award-winning actors in such legendary films when discussing your role?
ABIGAIL: Well, I was going to say… I did notice that. No pressure, then! Just as well I hear that now rather than at the beginning…
DAMIAN: In our last interview, I asked you, intertextual Freudian nightmares aside, I often think that Dorthea and Endeavour would make a great couple were it not for their age difference and if he ever had a long term girlfriend, wouldn’t she have a good reason to be jealous of his relationship with Dorothea and your reply was so brilliant and insightful that I’d like to quote it again in full…
‘Well, probably. In the sense that Dorothea has access to parts of his interior life that he doesn’t share lightly. So even though it’s not sexual, it is intimate. When people ask me why Endeavour and Dorothea don’t get together – apart from the Freudian nightmare! – I think of the ancient Greeks’ belief that friendship is more valuable than erotic love: the latter makes things messy and ultimately can end. Friendship endures and deepens.’
…Given that the friendship between Dorothea and Endeavour has indeed endured and deepened over nine series, was there any added additional pressure as an actor to reflect this in your performance one last time?
ABIGAIL: Never pressure. Working with Shaun is so easy. Our problem was often that we’d run through a scene and think, that’s it! Can’t improve on that. It’s us! But of course we had to make it work for the director and audience too! Russ had an uncanny ability to check in to our off screen friendship. Although I have to say Endeavour can be surprisingly minty and sometimes downright rude.
At times the desire to exclaim ‘Ooooooo, get you!’ a la Kenneth Williams was too hard to resist after a take! But it’s only because Morse is hurting and is so bad at being vulnerable, isn’t he? That’s what often makes him snap.
DAMIAN: What was it like saying goodbye to a cast and crew who you’ve become friends with over the last decade?
ABIGAIL: Heartbreaking. But we will still see each other. Indeed we have quite a bit already.
DAMIAN: Looking back over thirty-six episodes of Endeavour, do you have a favourite episode or a scene that best encapsulates Dorothea?
ABIGAIL: So many! That’s a tough one. ‘Snappy Jenkins’ at the nuclear power station [HARVEST, S4:E4]. And talking to Morse about “girl trouble”. And gently admonishing Thursday with ‘You’ve got your job and I’ve got mine’ in the pub. That was an episode with a lot more background stuff for Dorothea that didn’t make the final edit.
But I suppose most of all was the episode where I’m kidnapped and fight my assailant. That was a great episode to shoot. The row with Morse, the argument with my assistant, choking the villain, being rescued by Thursday! Joy.
DAMIAN: As I said to you in our first interview, I think your father would have been so proud of you and your contribution to Endeavour. And, personally, I feel so proud to have had the opportunity of talking to you about Dorothea over the years. Abigail, thank you so very much.
ABIGAIL: And thank you very much, Damian. For your kind words and support. It has been an honour and a privilege.
Interview copyright © Damian Michael Barcroft 2023
