Interview copyright © Damian Michael Barcroft 2023

~ An exclusive Endeavour interview with Anton Lesser ~

DAMIAN: Now, a couple of things first, I received an email from Kate Saxon [Director] this morning and she asked me to tell you that she sends her love.

ANTON: Aww, brilliant, thank you.

DAMIAN: This interview we’re doing now will be posted after the first two episodes have gone out but before the final so I’ve checked with Russ and it’s OK to talk a little bit about Bright’s days at Castle Gate sadly drawing to a close which will obviously set much of the tone for the last series. Russ mentioned though, that Bright being Bright, he’s determined to see all his chicks are taken care of.

ANTON: Yes, that’s right.

DAMIAN: So, we’ll talk about the first couple of episodes but no spoilers for the last.

ANTON: Yes, of course, I’ll do my best to remember and not let the cat out of the bag.

DAMIAN: In our first interview, I mentioned that in addition to your impressive body of work – both in the theatre and on the screen – you just happened to be in two of the biggest TV shows on the planet with The Crown and Game of Thrones. But now, you’re also in one of the biggest shows in the galaxy! Tell me how you came to be cast in Star Wars: Andor?

ANTON: Yes, well, funnily enough, a couple of years ago, I got a day’s work on Rogue One [a prequel to the original 1977 Star Wars film, A New Hope, and Star Wars: Andor is itself a prequel to Rogue One] just as a security guard. It was hardly a part at all really, but it was just fun to be on it. And, subsequently, the part got cut. There were a lot of English actors who were called in to do an appearance and then it got cut. Which often happens so that was fine. But then, that turned out to be really fortunate because if it hadn’t been cut, I wouldn’t have been able to be in Andor.

So, it worked out brilliantly. I did a self tape [filmed audition] for this thing that Disney were doing – I didn’t know what it was because it’s all so secret and you didn’t get a script, just a little sort of compilation of lines, that could be any character really, he was like a generic sort of thing just to see if you would be suitable for that kind of age group of characters – so I did that and then didn’t think any more about it. Then six weeks or so later, my agent told me they’re offering you the part and I asked what it was and he still didn’t know! It took me ages to find out it was indeed Star Wars so it was fantastic. And, it’s been brilliant because the writer of it is Tony Gilroy who directed and wrote some of The Bourne Identity films – he’s absolutely brilliant so I was just thrilled to be in it and meet him and be part of it. Yeah, it was great.

DAMIAN: In the original Star Wars, Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher were all relatively unknown and so the film needed the experience and gravitas of acting legends such as Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing.

ANTON: Oh, yes, yes, yes, that’s right.

DAMIAN: And I think that’s why you were cast in this one because they needed that kind of gravitas for this one too.

ANTON: Well, that’s a lovely idea but I don’t know about that – it’s great of you to say though!

DAMIAN: I think what pleases me most is that with things like Game of Thrones and Star Wars in particular, these shows will continue to introduce you to new audiences for generations to come and that really, really makes me happy.

ANTON: Oh, that’s great and yeah, I suppose you’re right. I mean, I’ve started to get invitations to those convention things like Star Wars and Game of Thrones which are very nice actually.

DAMIAN: Are they really?

ANTON: Yes, yes. People are so grateful that you turn up so they are actually rather nice things to do. I was completely overwhelmed by how thrilled they are to meet you and they are very caring about the characters.

DAMIAN: I was disappointed that you didn’t get your own lightsaber though.

ANTON: Yes, I know.

DAMIAN: Because you would have done sword fighting training at RADA.

ANTON: Well, yes I did, but I’m too old now.

DAMIAN: Never too old for lightsabers. Anyway, I think yet again, doesn’t your role as Major Partagaz [the head officer at the Imperial Security Bureau and quite similar to the Cushing role of Grand Moff Tarkin in the original] show why casting directors choose you to play such regal and powerful figures of authority?

ANTON: Well, yes, now I’m getting older I seem to get those sorts of parts. I also get lots of rabbis, doctors and barristers. But, I just feel really lucky that over the years, I’ve had such a lovely range of characters and recently – I don’t know if you’ve seen this series Better that’s on? – it stars Leila Farzad and I’ve got a part in that which again is another different kind of role and I just loved it.

DAMIAN: I’ve not caught up with it yet but I saw a publicity still with you drinking, smoking and looking rather worse for wear.

ANTON: Yes, he’s a rough looking character.

DAMIAN: Quite different to Bright.

ANTON: Yes, a little bit different to Reggie.

DAMIAN: You mentioned playing doctors and I remember that, even though you only appeared twice in Ripper Street and Dr. Karl Crabbe was such an evil character – you provided him with such a multilayered complexity that he became almost a tragic figure with more of an element of pathos rather than simply being a villain. How do you manage to touch an audience so that they recognise their own flawed humanity in someone so inhumane?

ANTON: I love trying to find their complexity, to use your word, in characters because it’s near the truth of how we are as human beings. We’re not one thing or the other, none of us are, we’re all a mixture of the dark and the light.

But I loved doing that job in particular, because Matthew Macfadyen is pretty much my favourite actor. I love his work. It’s so based in truth and honesty. I believe everything and even in stuff like Succession, oh my goodness Damian, he’s fantastic in that – absolutely fantastic.

DAMIAN: It was the BAFTAs recently and I remember you were nominated in the TV best supporting actor category for Wolf Hall, which I know you consider to be one of your favourite roles. The ceremonies are so long and I wondered if it was nerve wracking to be sat there all that time waiting to see if you’ll win?

ANTON: I remember thinking, wow, that’s amazing, my goodness, what an honour to be nominated and it’s actually possible that I could win. But then the other side is, God I hope I don’t win because I’d have to make a speech. So, it’s a mixture; you’re sort of excited and feel flattered that you’re in that company but then you’re sort of thinking, ‘Oh God, what would I say?’ and I remember when they announced the results, feeling this incredible sense of relief.

DAMIAN: What was it like returning to the theatre again and reprising your role in The Two Popes?

ANTON: Oh, it was great. I mean you know I did it before in 2019 [discussed in our previous interview], and there was all sorts of talk at the time of it going to the West End and it didn’t happen because of Covid and all that stuff. So, around about the beginning of last year, I got a call from James Baker [director] asking how would I feel about doing a little tour of it, and again, there’s two voices inside my head: one went ‘Ooh, yeah’, and the other one went, ‘Oh dear, I’m too old.’ So I asked what sort of a length of tour and he said, ‘Well, we’re looking at about ten weeks’ and I thought, ‘No, no way.’

When I was a young actor, I would have jumped to do it but then he asked if I would consider it if it was shorter and then I told him I might consider a maximum of six weeks if Nic Woodeson – who played the other pope – is interested. So I called Nic and I asked him what he thought and he agreed, ‘Ooh, I’m getting too old.’ Anyway, we hummed and harred about it but they came up with a package that made us really comfortable with nice places to stay within walking distance of each theatre and basically just pampered us.

DAMIAN: Now, although, as I’ve said, I’m absolutely thrilled that you’re so busy with other projects, it’s a somewhat bittersweet feeling because hasn’t it meant that unfortunately your availability for Endeavour was a little restricted for the previous series and also this last one?

ANTON: It was a bit, yeah. A bit tight. But they were lovely. We did have a dodging moment when we were a bit sort of double-booked with whatever else I was doing. I can’t remember if it was Andor or something but there was a bit of an overlap and Mammoth [Screen, the production company] had to sort of rejig. Charlotte Webber – who’s a brilliant producer – went out of her way to absolutely rejig their shooting schedule so I could do it and I’m very grateful for that.

DAMIAN: Obviously the death of Bright’s wife had a huge impact on him but we weren’t able to discuss this in much detail in our last interview because that episode hadn’t gone out at that point. However, much to my surprise and almost disbelief – I remember you telling me that you said to the director that you didn’t know how to play the scene. Now, I asked Kate Saxon about this and she had the following to say:

“[Anton is] the most exquisite and truthful actor. He handled that moment brilliantly. Anton is quite right when he said he didn’t know how to play it: he was open about that with me, as he says in your interview. That was because Bright is quite a closed book in terms of his emotional life, so Anton queried whether he should bat the truth of it away – almost be angry at the revelation at first. I suggested that rather than do that, he just allow Bright to try to listen to what he was being told… to truly hear it, whilst being aware this would be extraordinary news to hear, and therefore difficult to take in. That rather than battle it, he could try to comprehend it. And I did tell him he absolutely knew how to do that. Because Anton is one of the most emotionally open and brave actors I’ve ever worked with. So much so, he’s like the lightest touchpaper – utterly responsive. You’d never want to give a generalised or ill-thought-through note to Anton. If you earn his trust, he’ll take whatever suggestions you offer him. Therefore, as a director, your suggestions really count, so they’ve got to be good! 

ANTON: Aww, that’s lovely. Oh, bless her.

DAMIAN: Given you’re one of our finest actors with a vast amount of experience, can you tell me exactly why you found it so difficult at first and how with Kate’s help, you found the courage to be in the moment and just let yourself open up?

ANTON: I’ve no idea. I was just very, very fortunate that it was Kate who allowed the space and the time in the context of a piece of work where they don’t usually give you much time. It’s not like you’re on a movie where you’ve got time to rehearse, and do fifteen takes and then you go away and come back and do it again in the afternoon and if it doesn’t work you can come in again and do it the next day. This was more like you’ve half an hour to forty minutes and then you have to move onto the next scene because of the budget.

Given those constraints, there are some directors who – it’s almost magical, it’s a mysterious thing – that people can give you the space and the confidence to step into areas that perhaps you normally wouldn’t so I’m really saying I think I was just very lucky it was her and not somebody else saying, ‘OK, we’ve got to get this in, so just go for it.’ The chemistry was good, but other than that, that’s all I can say. It’s a whole mystery, this business of acting.

DAMIAN: So not only did Bright lose his young daughter but now also his wife too and he is completely alone. Prior to the events of the final series, what do you think drove Bright to get up in the morning and continue to go to work?

ANTON: That’s a good question but again, I don’t know. What keeps anybody going when they receive a big emotional blow? Some people, I suppose, don’t. Some people succumb and put the pillow over their head and convince themselves they’re not up to the challenge of dealing with it. But, I think perhaps it is a number of things as always, a sort of cocktail of things. One of which was clearly his training and his commitment and loyalty to those people who as Russell says, are ‘his chicks’, his boys, and we get to see that very powerfully in this last series.

I won’t go into too much detail but you do get a sense that he has the rigour and almost the very thing that from one perspective makes him rigid, and over sort of disciplinarian as he was at the beginning, a rather overstrict martinet sort of character whose negative ways also prove to be the things that sustains him at a time when he needs help. So I think that’s certainly one element to his sense of responsibility. Another, is the things that he’s come through in his many years dealing with people and situations; probably all sorts of grim and challenging situations. We know about the tiger don’t we?

DAMIAN: Oh, yes.

ANTON: And how he dealt with things like that, so just a mixture of things. Not really one clear answer but the fact that it’s a mixture and the fact that he’s complex, again going back to that thing that makes him real. And, he could have easily, if Russell had decided, he could have easily gone the other way and we’d have seen a complex character who went down a different path but I think it’s more exciting that his journey has come, you know, right from the beginning when he started off as this really sort of strict and rather unpleasant character but he turns out to be much more complicated and human.

DAMIAN: Yes, there was a lovely scene in the last series (TERMINUS) where it is snowing and Thursday is at the police station after learning that his son has gone missing from the army and Bright chooses to stay with him. You know, I didn’t want the scene to end and would have been happy just to have listened to Bright and Thursday talking together for the rest of the episode.

ANTON: I feel the same and that’s why, over the years, I’ve been sad that so many of the scenes that we actually shot never made it because of time. Such a shame.

DAMIAN: Another beautiful scene that I liked in the previous series was with Bright painting at the art classes (SCHERZO). 

ANTON: Yes, that was nice.

DAMIAN: As was the case with Shirley Trewlove previously, Bright is once again able to not only relate to young women, but also reach out and comfort them. I was very moved when he told the model, Lynn Parry, that ‘I think you’re an intelligent, sensitive young woman who fell amongst scoundrels. Any shame is on their side. Not yours.’ and then she kisses him on the cheek and says ‘Thank you’. Is it his own vulnerabilities that make Bright so accessible and relatable?

ANTON: Certainly as he’s gone on, as he’s developed those attributes. Yes, they’ve come out more and more.

DAMIAN: I remember you telling me before and we’ve already mentioned the tiger, that that was one of your favourite scenes but I’m wondering, looking back on all the episodes now, do you have a favourite scene or an episode that you think provided the audience with a window intro Bright’s soul?

ANTON: Oh, definitely I think my favourite, and the most challenging, was the one that we’ve discussed when Kate helped me to have a truthful response to that moment when he discovers his wife has died. And, I also love that whole bit with the doctor, do you remember when he goes to the club?

DAMIAN: Oh, yes, with Max? Yes, that was one of my favourites too where he asks him for help.

ANTON: I loved that because Bright was out of uniform and he was just a bloke. Just a civilian, both visually and psychologically. He wasn’t in a position of authority; he was visiting someone else in their comfort zone. In their environment and asking for their help. I just loved that we saw that different perspective.

DAMIAN: Given that this is the end, and the final chance for the actors to find the emotional truths about their characters, do you think there was more of a pressure to get them nailed one last time – particularly when scenes are not often shot in chronological order and there is limited time to rehearse?

ANTON: Absolutely. We were all so aware that this really was the end. Because, I think for quite a few years, people go round and say, ‘Oh, this is going to be the last season’, and then it turned out not to be, that when it was really clear that this really was the end, there was a real desire – I’m sure on everybody’s part – but certainly mine, that you wanted to ring out the juice of it, every possible minute to fulfil the potential of what you’ve been involved with for so long. I haven’t seen the finished thing, but I’ve seen little bits of it when I’ve had to do ADR, you know?

DAMIAN: Additional dialogue recording?

ANTON: Yes, and I thought, ‘Oh, gosh, that’s still there’, and I’m just delighted by the emotional culmination of Bright which I think Russell has written absolutely beautifully for all of the characters – not just mine.

I was saying to Kate, there’s a bit that I can’t tell you about that I loved so much when we shot it. When I read it, I was really moved actually, but I thought, ‘Wow, this is really beautiful, but it’s not going to survive the cut’ and I said to Kate, ‘this isn’t going to be in’, and she said, ‘It will if I have anything to do with it – I’m going to fight for it.’ And then I spoke to Russell and told him I love what you’ve written for all the characters at the end but particularly mine and I was so happy but it’ll be cut and he just said, ‘Over my dead body.’ As far as I know it’s still there.

DAMIAN: Well, I certainly hope so. Now, I remember before when I asked you about your approach to acting and you described it so beautifully by saying it’s not so much acting as revealing and describing it as the difference between a hand being closed or a hand relaxing and opening – being brave enough to be open enough that it allows the audience to identify with the character. Do you think you were able to do this one last time as Bright?

ANTON: I hope so. I really hope so. That was certainly my intention. I’m greedy though. You know, whatever was given to me, I always wanted more opportunities. I always wish they hadn’t cut that scene or I wish they hadn’t edited that little moment. Sometimes I question editing but it’s a selfish perspective. You have got to realise that the editor is working with so many strands, it’s not just you so I try to be generous in that aspect.

DAMIAN: Can you tell me what the last day on set was like and was it emotional saying goodbye to a cast and crew that you’ve worked with for the best part of a decade?

ANTON: It was. It was very emotional. I mean, because they were having to shoot all my stuff and get me away to do my other things, I wasn’t there the very last day of shooting so they put my stuff four or five days from the end. I can’t quite remember but what was very lovely as they started shooting my last scene – and again it wasn’t chronologically his last – people started to appear in the studio; the producers would appear, and other people, and actors from another day’s work, and they all congregated and when they shot my last one, there was all these people and they all applauded and it was just lovely.

I think I responded – because I didn’t know what to say – I think I responded with some words of Reggie Bright which appear in the last episode. I can’t tell you about it but you’ll probably recognise what I said when you see it.

DAMIAN: You’ve never played the same character over such a long period. Do you think you’ll miss Bright?

ANTON: No. I’ll miss the lovely familiarity, and the lovely sort of family aspect of going there every year for the last ten years and just immediately clicking in that sort of ease of working and knowing the other people and their characters. That is lovely. You know, they all came to see The Two Popes in Kingston upon Thames. Kate came and that was absolutely thrilling and I went down after the show and they all were in the bar and they were all hugging me and saying lovely things. It was just like, yeah, your family are there supporting you. It was just really nice, but Bright? No, I won’t miss Bright because he’s come and had that journey through me and that’s it, I’m fine and happy about that. We’ve seen his journey and I hope it’s served its purpose well.

DAMIAN: If Bright was a real person that you’d met and someone asked you to describe him, what would you say about him?

ANTON: Oh, God, erm…

DAMIAN: Well, what would your first impression of him be?

ANTON: Mixed very mixed.

DAMIAN: Well, he has been a mixed character if you look back at his journey from the first episode.

ANTON: Yes, I think like most of us with the best intentions in the world, sometimes he pursued those intentions for all the right motives and maybe in a misguided way, as we all do, but ultimately a man as we all are, worthy of respect because he was doing his best given the forces he was exposed to; the natural forces and the natural conditions we all have to face. He did the very best he could, sometimes it didn’t work, sometimes it did, but deserving of dignity and respect as a human being. I just think he’s a ripe old mixture.

DAMIAN: You know I’m a huge fan of yours and whenever I watch and inevitably rewatch Endeavour, I’ll always remember these conversations we’ve had over the years with great fondness. Anton, thank you so very much.

ANTON: Aww, that’s very kind of you to say, Damian. I’ve enjoyed them, I really have.

~

Interview copyright © Damian Michael Barcroft 2023