Interview copyright © Damian Michael Barcroft 2021
DAMIAN: I know it’s something to do with Indian music but why did you specifically choose to title this film RAGA?
RUSS: We always try to include a musical title across the run. And, given the Indian flavour of the story, RAGA – a central feature of Indian classical music – felt fitting.
DAMIAN: And was naming the Indian restaurant “The Jolly Rajah” simply a play on Jolly Roger, or more in reference to the great Mr Allam?
RUSS: A play on Jolly Roger, obviously — but also nodding to The British Raj. It was originally called something else — but it’ll keep.
DAMIAN: RAGA opens with the The Jolly Rajah cinema advert which I thought was very evocative of the sort of crap adverts I remember watching before a film started during the 70s, 80s and even 90s – they never seemed to evolve very much did they?
RUSS: I’m of an age where I look back on them with huge fondness and find them immensely comforting. The reason they never evolved may have been economic, but there was something about their made for tuppence sensibility and ‘just five minutes from this cinema’ that’s incredibly endearing. I rather liked that world from which they came. And it should be remembered that it wasn’t just Indian restaurant ads that looked like this. Pretty much all ‘local business’ ads had something of this flavour.
DAMIAN: Were you one of the boys who purchased refreshments during the adverts and trailers or – like my family who were always on a tight budget in those days – from Woolworths beforehand?
RUSS: Do you mean from the usherette? I went to the pictures rarely as a kid with the family. But I think selections were made for the most part from the ‘concessions’ counter before going into the cinema itself. If I remember correctly. Sometimes from the usherette. We covered a fair bit of this in CARTOUCHE (S5:E2).
DAMIAN: Again, very evocative, the wrestling scenes reminded me of Saturday afternoons round my great grandparents. My mum had me when she was very young so I was lucky enough to know them and my great nan, Gladys – who was a small, frail and ever so gently spoken old lady – absolutely adored watching big sweaty men jump all over each other in colourful leotards. In my day it was Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks, who do you remember?
RUSS: It was the closest thing we had to a religion in our house. How long have you got? Les Kellett; Kendo Nagasaki; Adrian Street, and Bobby Barnes (as glam tag team Hell’s Angels); Jackie Pallo; Mick McManus – (legend has it that Pallo and McManus used to knock about with one or two family members back in the mists of time – but who knows? – nobody left alive to ask now) – the Royal Brothers – Bert Royal and Vic Faulkner; Honey Boy Zimba; Johnny Kwango.
Likewise — my diminutive Northern grandmother was a vocal devotee of the grapple game. I’ve half a mind we went along to the Town Hall once to watch it. We certainly went along to the Bingo often enough. My principal recollection of the latter is cigarette smoke. A large, windowless room filled with two-hundred or more women — pretty much all of whom were smoking for Britain. Literally, eye watering. Cinemas, of course — had that same tobacco smoke haze. My one regret about the Wrestling sequence is that we lost a bit of the great Ted Robbins for reasons of length.
DAMIAN: Incidentally, my great grandad, Joe, lost an eye in the war and would only wear his glass eye on special occasions like a wedding or suchlike. So, for the rest of time, he kept it in a cup of water on the sink next to the toilet and I always had the creepy sensation that I was being watched when I went to the bathroom. Anyway, speaking of families, the Allams have invaded and taken everyone’s job as one of the more unsavoury characters in RAGA might phrase it. In addition to Roger, we not only have his wife, Rebecca Saire returning in her role from COLOURS (S5:E4), but also their son, William, as Gary Rogers/Radowicz. You told me last time that you had nothing to do with casting Abigail Thaw’s daughter in ORACLE (S7:E1) so presumably this wasn’t your idea either?
RUSS: Um… Kind of yes and no. I thought as a story it would be great to see Mrs.Radowicz again. It felt like it connected with her earlier story. To follow that to its conclusion. And all else followed.
DAMIAN: Do you think you would have written any dialogue slightly differently as a nod to acknowledge their relationships – perhaps similar to the way you did with Abigail Thaw and her father in FIRST BUS TO WOODSTOCK – if you had known in advance of writing the script that Roger would be joined by his wife and son?
RUSS: No. The material for Abi was intentionally slightly knowing – as it was conceived as a one off. But a much straighter bat was played with Rebecca and William.
DAMIAN: I noticed on Britbox that they call the first episode of Endeavour, OVERTURE, and not FIRST BUS TO WOODSTOCK as we’ve always referred to it. What’s the official title then?
RUSS: OVERTURE — in the end it was felt we should keep to the one word title that’s become part of our world.
DAMIAN: Not for the first time, Endeavour explores the issue of racism. Is this purely because of what was happening in real life during the period or is it a subject that you feel compelled to return to or perhaps have personally witnessed?
RUSS: We were led by the history. The election of 1970 with its National Front candidates — and there was a big protest march against the proposed Immigration Act which was passed the following year. The purpose of the Immigration Act was – you won’t be surprised to find – to control — i.e., limit – immigration from Commonwealth countries which was perceived to be on too great a scale. It was a matter of national interest at the time – so we covered it, and it was all of a piece with the restaurant.
DAMIAN: Were there gangs that you remember from your own youth?
RUSS: No. Not particularly. South London where I grew up – there may have been that in the generation above us – but black and white kids played together and just got on with life. It was a very mixed demographic. Fewer Indian, Pakistani, or Bangladeshi families — but lots of Afro-Caribbean and biracial families. The pub over the way… the clientele there was pretty much exclusively white, but on the street the kids just all mixed in together and got on with being kids.
DAMIAN: Away from these interviews, I’ve told you before that my first girlfriend was black and I don’t remember it ever being an issue with either our families or fellow pupils at school. Quite rightly, no one congratulated us on how “right on” or progressive we were and nor did anyone make any negative comments to us either. The point is that no one commented full stop because, as I’ve said, it wasn’t an issue. We went to the cinema together a few times – I might add that I always splashed out on such occasions and never got a Woolworths pic ‘n’ mix beforehand – and one time she brought along a friend who was accompanied by her boyfriend, both of whom were also black. Again, I honestly don’t think the fact that I was the only white person in the group ever occurred to any of us and we all went about our business quite innocently and oblivious to what anyone might or might not think. And yet, rather sadly, with the undoubtedly well-intentioned but constant contemporary focus on the subject of racism in film, television, journalism and perhaps most especially on social media, I really do suspect that I would be very conscious of the fact if I was dating a black girl today. How is this progress? Anyway, I suppose my question to you is do you think that there’s a danger of either preaching to the choir or alienating sections of the audience whenever you explore these sort of subjects because your political jibes – particularly in this film at the expense of the Conservatives, Brexit and UKIP – are not very subtle are they?
RUSS: Again — it’s the history and its cyclical nature that throws these things up. Half a century on, immigration was again the issue of the day. If you’re dealing with a story from 1970 that covers the same preoccupations that have come around again, then comparisons are unavoidable. In 1970 it’s the NF – fascist and neo-Nazi bootboys – who’re leading the charge against immigration, and across the last thirty years or so it’s been another NF. You’re not seriously going to expect us to depict the National Front in a warm and cuddly light, are you? But it was the family story at the restaurant which is where we began. It was originally conceived as a kind of King Lear story set around an Indian restaurant — but that was almost too much to fit in to the two hour traffic of our stage. A cast of if not thousands then a dozen or so — and guest parts are at a premium. I’m limited to about ten or twelve in total — and when you’ve got a weave going — several stories interlaced, you need to people them — so the numbers at the restaurant came down.
DAMIAN: I thought the scene in the morgue where Mrs Radowicz identifies her son’s body was beautifully performed and intensely moving in illustrating how racism and violence not only affects the victim and perpetrator but also their families and the wider community. Was it important for you to provide some sort of balance in showing the violence from both sides when Gary is stabbed by a group of young Asian men?
RUSS: It was a way to illustrate the tragic and utter pointlessness of hatred. In this instance, hatred that takes ‘difference’ as its cause. You’ll remember Ray Winstone’s fate in Quadrophenia (1979). So — there it was mods and rockers. But the Montagues and Capulets are there too.
DAMIAN: Let’s return to happier questions. We might expect Max to wear a pinny – for both cooking and cutting – but what a wonderful treat it was to see Strange in his kitchen wearing one whilst trying to learn how to cook! I had hoped that this might be a prelude to a later scene with him preparing a meal for a special young lady but sadly this proved not to be the case so what suddenly motivated him to put down the trombone and learn to cook instead?
RUSS: I think we were just playing around with the notion of food. And Strange – in Riggers’ hands – is a wonderful everyman. Most of us – men at least – would probably like to be Endeavour or Thursday, but in truth we’re probably a lot closer to Strange.
DAMIAN: Thanks to our last Q&A, I can’t help but hear Henry Mancini whenever Violetta appears but anyway, there’s a wonderful scene between her and Endeavour…
ENDEAVOUR: Venice was Venice. You stepped out of your life for a minute and you found yourself in mine. And it was wonderful. But it wasn’t real.
VIOLETTA: It was for me.
She moves in to kiss him but he turns away.
VIOLETTA (CONT’D): Tell me you don’t want me.
ENDEAVOUR: I don’t want you.
VIOLETTA: Tell me again.
ENDEAVOUR: I can’t save you.
VIOLETTA: Then no one can.
…You obviously know and the audience knows that having failed to save his mother, Endeavour tries to save everyone else – particularly women – but was he also aware of this when he said the line, ‘I can’t save you’?
RUSS: No. Very much not. I don’t think he understood the weight of it. He couldn’t save her from a bad marriage.
DAMIAN: Then what exactly did he mean and – as a very clever and perceptive detective – does Endeavour have any self awareness or clue regarding the reason why his relationships with women such as Susan, Claudine and Joan keep ending so dismally?
RUSS: Susan was too early. Claudine was never going the distance. Joan… He imagines declaring his feelings for Joan would be in some way being disloyal, and in some respect betraying the trust Thursday and by extension the family have placed in him.
DAMIAN: Not that he would, of course, but if Endeavour sought relationship advice from one of his friends, who might provide the most incisive observations about his shortcomings as a boyfriend?
RUSS: You see — I don’t think he has shortcomings as a boyfriend particularly. I think I’ve mentioned before his tendency to go all in and hold nothing back. If anything he’s too honest. When he falls, he falls hard. ‘When somebody loves you, it’s no good unless he loves you… All the way.’ Isn’t that the sentiment that’s supposed to prevail? Not some wishy-washy half-measure where you don’t declare your hand. ‘Vide cor meum’. Isn’t that what we all want? Isn’t that the ideal? Something real. ‘Give me some truth.’
DAMIAN: Why does Ludo say that Violetta hates the opera?
RUSS: It demonstrates how little he knows her — or how little he wants Endeavour to think he knows her…
DAMIAN: Ludo references Robert Danvers. Have you – some might add finally – moved on from Tony Hancock to Peter Sellers references now because not all of your wee nodettes are necessarily always in keeping with the period?
RUSS: There’s A Girl in My Soup (1970) is such a charming confection — and has owned my heart since I first saw it many, many years ago. Impossible to say with any degree of certainty — but Danvers feels pretty close to Sellers, or as close as we’re ever going to get on film. And he’s a food critic and restaurant reviewer — so it had to go in. I think we may have nodded to him before as one of the judges for the beauty contest… many years ago. And, of course, Ms.Hawn is just beguiling. The ‘seduction’ scene – which is a fabulously long two-hander sequence – is magic. Goldie Hawn proves more than a match for Sellers, who is only in his early 40s here – and posing as a somewhat moth-eaten and dog-eared Lothario. But as a piece there’s a wonderful evocation of the generation gap. Pre and post war sensibilities.
Wonderful Nicky Henson. John Comer – who had been one of Sellers’ droogies in I’m Alright Jack (1959), and with whom I got to work about ten years later. Gabrielle Drake – for all the Fandersons out there. Diana Dors! Tony Britton being just pitch perfect as always. And, of course, Nicola Pagett who lit up every frame – and sadly went ahead this year. She really was very special. Her performance in Privates on Parade (1982) — there you are, written by the great Peter Nichols – back to Morse again! — is a gem.
Oh – and Mike D’Abo’s ‘Miss Me in the Morning’ is a stone cold classic.
DAMIAN: Why is Endeavour doing his own decorating, is it because he wants to or that he can’t afford a decorator?
RUSS: It’s a class thing – isn’t it? Thursday you’ll recall decorating his own place. And it’s an extension of that. ‘Get a man in?’ Fatal to generalise, but one extrapolates much from one’s own circumstances – and ‘decorating’ for those of my socio-economic background, and I appreciate we were quite an idiosyncratic set-up, was always seen as the job of the ‘man of the house’ — else ‘the woman of the house.’ Getting decorators in was something perceived by us as something the middle-classes – encompassing the LMC – did. And of course — his legendary parsimony may have something to do with it.
DAMIAN: Endeavour is smoking again but we’d better not repeat our previous debates about this. However, Thursday is back on his pipe – I thought you told me something about him considering it old hat in the new decade?
RUSS: Smoking for Endeavour is very much Shaun’s input. Thursday’s return to the briar is where he’s happiest. The aberration was brought about by trying to fit with Box and Jago’s new beat, Daddio!
DAMIAN: The following scene between Mr and Mrs Bright after the faith healer left their home confused me a little:
MRS BRIGHT: He’s very handsome, don’t you think?
BRIGHT: Oh, yes. Very handsome, I’m sure.
MRS BRIGHT: Are you jealous, Puli?
BRIGHT: Desperately.
They then both smile at each other like it’s a joke, what’s going on here?
RUSS: I think – if I remember – she’s talking about Ludo, isn’t she? Teasing Bright. But given their unhappy history where ‘other men’ are concerned it’s a bit reckless. Bright – knowing how ill she is – goes along with it.
DAMIAN: Bright mentions that he visited Pankot during his time in India. Sounds thrillingly exciting, you might want to add this to the list of places you intend to visit by train one day?
RUSS: Only if there’s a ride on a mine-cart involved! But no heart extraction, thank you!
DAMIAN: There’s an important scene in the Indian restaurant where two of the brothers are talking about their understanding of where home is and their sense of identity and belonging. Given some of your background that we’ve discussed in this and our previous interviews, it struck me that the home and community in which you were raised is obviously vastly different from your current situation and I couldn’t help but wonder with which of these you feel most closely identified; do you feel more of a true sense of belonging to the world of Little Russ or Big Russ?
RUSS: Material circumstances may change, but I don’t think one’s values do. You can take the boy out of Battersea, &c.
DAMIAN: Anything you can tell us about the second film of the new series, SCHERZO?
RUSS: Um… Not much. It’s directed in fine style by Ian Aryeh. We touch a bit on Endeavour’s family life. And Thursday has an away-day. It’s a bit of a celebration of a particular sub-strand of British film-making which was started by a book that arrived in 1971 and went on to become a series of books – so we felt justified in including it. The films came a few years later — but it’s a world I’ve always thought worth exploring, and with the window of opportunity closing on how many more worlds one’s going to get to look at… it felt like now or never.
Interview copyright © Damian Michael Barcroft 2021