An exclusive interview with the writer and executive producer of Endeavour

_{Interview copyright © Damian Michael Barcroft 2021}

DAMIAN: A dark, cloudy sky replete with full moon, a moody and misty canal and various other eerie shots. We’re back to where we began series seven with a bit of boo!!! Back in the day, when we were both still in shorts, you’d often refer to the assortment of genres – or at least different styles – of Endeavour episodes within a series as a selection box of chocolates. Given that you only had three episodes to play with, do you regret not having the space to offer more of a variety of “flavours” and would you ideally have preferred to have had some more space between the similar horror elements of both ORACLE (S7:E1) and ZENANA (S7:E3)?

RUSS: Well — I’d always have far sooner have had four or more films — but three is what Shaun and Rog were prepared to do, so you cut according to your cloth. It also dictated to a degree the shape of the thing. Three was a very new shape for us. We wanted a bit of a triptych.

DR BYRNE: Admit men into our women’s college, you would invite the wolf inside the citadel. We cannot underestimate this. The barbarian is at the gate! Within this college we are safe, we are free. Beyond the pale, we are neither of these things. We are prey.

DAMIAN: ‘Inviting the wolf’ and women as ‘prey’. You’ll no doubt be familiar with Angela Carter and her feminist reworkings of classic fairy tales with gothic horror elements such as Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf. Was it your intention to use the imagery of the wolf as a predator in a similar way?

RUSS: Yeh — I’d thought we’d not ‘done a scary’ in the previous series, and this was an attempt to fold some of that into 1970. To go full Hammer gothic. I think there was as much a nod to vampirism as lycanthropy to begin with. A lot more Grand Guignol. But not everyone shares my enthusiasm for such things. So… The majority of that fell away in shooting the opener.

DAMIAN: And you must have seen the wonderful The Company of Wolves (1984)?

RUSS: I saw it at the pictures when it came out — because I’m very old. Extraordinary looking picture.

DAMIAN: After the opening montage we cut to another female victim of the Towpath Killer and Max makes the following observations while examining the body: ‘Broken neck. There are wounds adjacent to the jugular. Bruising at the trauma site suggests the attacker sucked, or attempted to suck her blood.’ Thursday somewhat sneeringly asks if they’ve still arrested the right suspect, to which Endeavour tries to reply, ‘It doesn’t mean…’, but Thursday interjects, ‘It means you’re not as smart as you like to give out.’ Obviously the relationship between the two has deteriorated over the years but I was wondering if you think the animosity really began to take root in CODA (S3:E4) with Endeavour disapproving of Thursday beating up the gang associate in the garage?

RUSS: I think it’s cumulative – but yes, I think it’s the first time Endeavour expresses disapproval of Thursday’s methods. It’s the flipside of the avuncular Blue Lamp demeanour that’s been on show since the off. But let’s not forget that he lamped Teddy Samuels in what is now called OVERTURE — albeit with Endeavour out of the room.

BRIGHT: We would have got him a deal sooner if we’d been listened to. Morse meant well, of course, and his record speaks for itself. I’m not suggesting any repercussions for him. Not for a moment, no. But we invested too much faith in his abilities. Backed his instincts too wholeheartedly. We gave him his head. Overindulged him. And he was wrong.

DAMIAN: While the troubles between Thursday and Endeavour may be understandable, Bright has no such quarrels with Endeavour that I can think of – at this early point in the episode at least – so isn’t all this a bit disappointing and harsh of the Chief Superintendent, almost as though he has regressed back to the irascible and incredulous Bright of old that we originally met in GIRL (S1:E1)?

RUSS: I think Bright had troubles of his own at home — and is not fully his best self. Presumably the pressure from Division is considerable — and they’re looking for a scapegoat.

DAMIAN: I asked you at the beginning of these interviews this year how your memory was and you told me ‘unreliable.’ Well, I’m afraid mine is too because you were absolutely right that Mrs Thursday invites Endeavour to Christmas dinner: ‘The children get out a game or two for after the Queen, and Fred has a doze in front of the big film.’ Lovely that, given their age, she still refers to Joan and Sam as children but I was wondering what games they might have played?

RUSS: What are we looking at… 1970? Oh — the John Waddington Songbook, wouldn’t you think? The big two – obviously. And Totopoly, perhaps? Formula One? Risk – which I think then was Parker Brothers? As was Moviemaker – which I liked a lot. Go For Broke arrived in ‘65, so that might’ve been in with a shout. Sorry! In the manner of Grahame Garden on I’m Sorry I Haven’t A Clue — ‘That was my word.’ Or in this case game.

DAMIAN: Was there ever any explanation in any of the drafts of the script for this episode as to why Joan and Sam didn’t visit at Christmas?

RUSS: I honestly can’t recall. I think the idea was that they were in the back room watching TV. We didn’t have Jack or Sara available — so…

DAMIAN: Given he was raised as a Quaker, would Endeavour have celebrated Christmas as a kid?

RUSS: The Quakerism was on his mum’s side — so I suspect he got a bit of traditional Woolworth’s Christmas with his father.

DAMIAN: Another victim of the Towpath Killer victim is called Petra Cornwell. Any relation to Patricia Cornwell, the author of the Scarpetta crime novels and Portrait of a Killer: Jack the Ripper – Case Closed?

RUSS: I think it’s one of those instances where Clearance dictated what we could or couldn’t have. It wasn’t intentional. Cornwell from Bernard or Hugh, most likely. And then Clearance probably offered up Petra or Cleopatra or Immelmahey, and so we had Hobson’s Choice.

DAMIAN: Anyway, there’s a wonderful scene where Endeavour and Thursday once again come to blows as they argue over the killer’s MO…

ENDEAVOUR: Let’s not clutch at straws to save our blushes. Three women, one man. It’s the same killer for all. Whoever killed Molly Andrews killed this young woman.
THURSDAY: Oh, yeah? You’d like that to be true, wouldn’t you? Show me up. “The old man’s losing his touch.” Is that it?
ENDEAVOUR: I didn’t say that.
THURSDAY: You didn’t need to. But before you get all high and mighty, let’s not forget you had all this down for Naomi Kane’s killer.
ENDEAVOUR: Yes, I know. But if we’re being honest about it, when it comes to something like this, you’ve never really had that much touch to lose, have you?
THURSDAY: This is what I get, is it? I’ve stuck my neck out for you more than you know.
ENDEAVOUR: Yes, of course you have. Who wouldn’t? I mean, bank robberies, car thieves, yeah, there’s no one better. But if it’s something that demands a little bit of intellect or a little bit of finesse then…
THURSDAY: You arrogant, conceited…
MAX: Gentlemen! You will conduct yourselves with decorum and the solemnity appropriate to this situation or you will find some other place to stand. If you want to carry on like that, you will find yourself another pathologist. Am I understood?
ENDEAVOUR: Max, I’m sorry, I…
MAX: Am I understood? Then we shall say two o’clock.
STRANGE: That’s the face we want to show the world now, is it? Washing out our dirty smalls in front of respected friends and colleagues. God almighty, what’s the matter with you? Well… I hope you’re both pleased with yourselves.

DAMIAN: Lot’s to unpack here but first of all, ‘save our blushes’ or more usually ‘spare my blushes’ is a true Russ-ism, are you aware that you use this phrase a lot – particularly in real life?

RUSS: Work in television long enough and you have a lot of blushes that want sparing.

DAMIAN: It’s a wonderful scene as I say, splendidly dramatic with the sort of dialogue that I imagine all concerned savour delivering with particular delight but also – or at least I found it to be so – really rather endearingly humorous. Wasn’t it beautifully performed when Max tells them off and Endeavour and Thursday look to the ground in shame almost like two naughty school children?

RUSS: When Max loses it, you know you’ve crossed a line.

DAMIAN: And Max and Strange almost appear to be taking the role of parents or school teachers in uttering the sadly cliched but terribly accurate words, ‘Am I understood?’ and ‘I hope you’re pleased with yourselves’. It tickles me that it’s almost as though parents and teachers are on autopilot and simply repeating what their own parents and teachers said to them when they were children. And teachers in particular can’t seem to help themselves by adding ‘abundantly’ to things like ‘do I make myself clear’ even though most young children probably don’t even know what abundantly means.

RUSS: Well — it clearly takes a lot to drive either Max or Strange to take issue with Endeavour and/or Thursday. When you love people, it’s tough to watch them tear each other apart.  

DAMIAN: Particularly apparent in this scene, isn’t it astonishing to behold the transition of Strange as we met him in GIRL (S1:E1) and his slow and subtle transformation towards the older Strange of Inspector Morse as played by the wonderful James Grout?

RUSS: All credit to Riggers. He has never put a foot wrong. Such a fine, fine actor. One of the great joys of the job has been watching him unfurl his sail of greatness.  

DAMIAN: Do you think that it is precisely because they’re ‘respected friends and colleagues’ that both Strange and Max dared to speak to Endeavour and particularly Thursday like that?

RUSS: Completely. Let’s not forget DEGUELLO (S6:E4). These are men who have taken it to the wire together. Cowley men – first and last. United against a common enemy, they proved themselves undefeatable. But a house divided against itself…

DAMIAN: Thursday spends some quality time with his canaries as he whistles to them – what with this and the Towpath Killer suspects, there’s more whistling in series seven than a Roger Whittaker concert – and the birds chirp back but then a cat walks into the room which prompts him to warn, ‘Get out of it! Before you get my toe up your arse.’ Remembering where he told Win that he was going to keep the birds and many other utterances throughout the years, Thursday seems to have a fixation with bottoms! Anyway, first of all, when did the Thursdays get a cat?

RUSS: Not theirs. Cats have a habit of wandering in from the garden. Arse and particularly arseholes seem to have had great currency with those who had served in the war. Was it Milligan, I read about — one of that group of comedians and entertainers that’d come through the war, anyway — saying that all you needed to be a big hit with an audience of soldiers at a concert party was to come on stage and say ‘arseholes’.  

You’ll remember the serviceman’s lyric to Colonel Bogey’s March was ‘Arseholes! And the same to you!’

DAMIAN: And secondly, was this a play on the predator and prey theme again as it was intercut with the scene where Endeavour talks to Jenny Tate about her dreams and visions?

RUSS: Cat and canary.

DAMIAN: After he sees the copious crucifixes, Bible pages and the black painted silhouette of a wolf on the walls of her home, Endeavour is listening to Jenny tell him about her childhood including the memory of playing hide and seek with her cousin who had a particular fondness for necks, ‘He’d hold you down and pin a big, fat, wet raspberry on your neck. Making out it was all a big joke and a game’ and that she hid in her aunt’s wardrobe once, ‘all fur coats and that. Stoles, you call them? Things made out to look like foxes or some other animal. Their paws hanging down and glass eyes on wire. There was this handbag smell, all stale. Perfume and lipstick and old sweets, all mixed up with mints and cigarettes.’ You often say it’s funny the things that you remember and I continue to be fascinated with the way in which you skilfully interweave your own personal memories with twists on popular culture to create such evocative and resonate dramatic sequences.

The game of hide and seek in a wardrobe filled with fur coats obviously reminds one of The Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe – not to mention the White Witch’s wolf who is head of her secret police –  but there’s more; Jenny says of being trapped in the wardrobe that she ‘screamed and screamed and screamed, till I was gasping.’ Now this may be a bit of a stretch  – and I may be overthinking again – but you mentioned Scream and Scream Again in one of our previous interviews but if the repetition of screams were not enough, the 1970 horror film also just happens to be about a serial killer who drains his victims’ blood! Also, last time, since you vividly recalled the childhood trips to the bingo hall as a kid, is the stale handbag, perfume, lipstick, mints and cigarettes how you remember the old ladies smelling?

RUSS: Jenny’s story – for the most part – is a memory. I slept in the attic when I was a boy, (eventually with half a dozen canaries) and the old man had built – built-in wardrobes across the length of the wall. Three sets of double doors. But inside, there was no divider between each notional wardrobe. So you could enter via door one and travel the length of the thing inside to emerge at door three – or door six if you’re counting each door leaf as a single. It was the place that clothes went to die. When I was put to bed, there was no night light. The place was as black as pitch — you truly couldn’t see a hand in front of your face. I remember hearing voices — I must have been very small – three or four – maybe? – and I got out of bed to try to find the door to come downstairs. And in the dark I lost my bearings. I entered the wardrobe via one door and before I knew it was lost in its be-furred and cavernous interior, and I couldn’t find my way out. It was clearly traumatic enough for me to remember vividly half a century later.

DAMIAN: I’ll be tempted to slip Aconitum into your orange juice when it’s my next round if you say no to either of the following questions! Firstly, The Wolf’s Head pub sign absolutely MUST be a wee nodette to The Slaughtered Lamb from An American Werewolf in London (1981)?

RUSS:  Yup.

DAMIAN: And the handle of the sword cane which Strange gets stabbed with is obviously supposed to be similar to the one Claude Rains uses to kill Lon Chaney Jr in The Wolf Man (1941)?

RUSS: Yes — the head at least.

There was a bit of Murder By Decree (1979) with the sword-stick too — presumably, meant to be Spivey, if one’s keeping to the much discredited Stephen Knight solution.

The finale was originally conceived as a nod to the famous final battle between Lee and Cushing in the ‘58 Dracula — the Douglas Fairbanks leap from the refectory table, and all the rest of it. I think we also nodded to the end of Risen from the Grave (1968), as well.  But that particular incarnation of the ending did not meet with Universal – or even Hammer – enthusiasm.

DAMIAN: All-time favourite werewolf movie?

RUSS: That’s tough — but it’s probably got to be American Werewolf in London — if only for La Agutter. But there’s also John Woodvine, Brian Glover… and a very young Rik Mayall to enjoy. And it’s a London that’s much gone. The London of my salad days. Well — salad dodger days at least.

DAMIAN: Immediately after the Strange stabbing, Thursday is dismissive of Endeavour’s theory regarding the true identity of Sturgis and the mental connection Jenny may have had with him. Thursday then asks when he starts at Kidlington under McNutt and after telling him, he just walks away in silence and gets into the car with his new bagman, Siddle, leaving Endeavour standing alone looking absolutely devastated. I know that I’ve probably asked you variations on this question before but in that moment, does his expression illustrate the loss of a friend, a respected colleague or a parental figure who showed Endeavour more kindness and caring than his own father ever did?

RUSS: All of that, I would imagine. You’d need to ask Shaun.

DAMIAN: Regardless of whatever might have come later, Thursday is cruel at that very moment isn’t he?

RUSS: I think they probably both felt things had come to the end of the road. But I think that’s the nature of their relationship. They might fight and hurt each other – but when the chips are down… At least, that’s always been the way so far.

DAMIAN: And again in that very moment, having been manipulated, betrayed and rejected by Violetta, Endeavour is completely alone isn’t he?

RUSS: He has failed — utterly. He has been gulled.

DAMIAN: I don’t know if it’s your skill as a writer or the strength of the performances – possibly both, of course – but isn’t it interesting how the audience’s sympathies with various characters might have shifted throughout the years. Certainly, as I’ve told you before, I was surprised by the way he’s treated Strange in the past and most especially the appalling way in which he tried to hurt Joan with his snooty attitude and condescending words. Indeed, as Thursday says in this episode, ‘you look down your nose at everyone’ and ‘nobody’s good enough’. However, in this story at least, my sympathies firmly lie with Endeavour.

RUSS: I think you and Thursday have a point. I think we were just drawing on those less agreeable aspects of the later Morse’s character. The things that tested the patience and innate decency of Robbie Lewis. Morse as a Detective Chief Inspector could be pretty lacerating. The withering, belittling phrase was never far from his lips. The finer things in life — the opera, the jag, the intellectual comforts – those things are his armour, aren’t they? They’re what stand in place of a meaningful emotional connection with another human being. They give him comfort and protection. So – he has the idealised and intellectualised love of high art, rather than the infinitely more messy real thing.  We’re watching him bolt that armour on.

DAMIAN: In addition to this, of course, the audience has had to endure another agonising scene to watch concerning the death of Mrs Bright. Let’s remind ourselves of the final moments with her and her husband…

‘And I always shall…’ Heart-breaking. I know you would have introduced his wife much sooner if you had the screen time but for how long did you know that Mr Bright would become a widower?

RUSS: Um… Well, it needed to be its own thing. Its own story. And not just a slightly posher version of the Thursdays’ domestic scenes. So — sadly, it was always going that way.

DAMIAN: When I last interviewed Mr Lesser he told me that he had a discussion with the director, Kate Saxon, in which he confessed that he didn’t know how to play the scene where Thursday tells Bright his wife has died in the supposed accident. Isn’t that remarkable given the absolute power of his performance in the film?

RUSS: I didn’t know that. Unsurprisingly, Kate and Anton found the way to it. Anton has never been less than an absolute wonder across these films. And – let’s be honest – in everything he’s ever done. One of the many bits of great good fortune that befell Endeavour is getting Anton to come and work with us. Every scene is just a joy to behold. This year, alas – due to the demands of his presence in another place – our time with him has been much limited. But one treasures every second.

DAMIAN: It’s funny the things that you remember, but when I first rang Mr Lesser for an interview, it took him a while to answer and he apologised saying something like the phone was at the other end of the house – I honestly think he may have even said it was in the hall. Now, just compare this to the following dialogue when Bright is in denial, can’t accept his wife’s death and tells Thursday that he’s going to ring her to prove she’s still alive: ‘It just takes her a while to get to the phone, you see. It’s quite a way from, erm, from one part of the house to the hall. That’s where we keep the instrument.’ Is this a remarkable coincidence or did you base this on your own phone calls to Mr Lesser?

RUSS: It’s a remarkable coincidence, I promise you.  

DAMIAN: And possibly even more agonising to watch than the aforementioned was the one where – despite Thursday’s best efforts – Endeavour tries to tell Bright that it was no accident and his wife died deliberately at the hands of Ludo for the insurance money.

Leicester
Uttoxeter
Dover
Oxford

Would you agree that Endeavour has become increasingly darker over the years but this was probably the darkest series yet?

RUSS: As above, so below.

DAMIAN: Let’s move onto the grand finale! In your wildest dreams, did you ever think that you would be writing a libretto to an opera?

RUSS: Ha! Well — it’s been the most marvellous sandpit to play in. The wonderful thing about the show has been – for the most part – if you can imagine it, you can do it. I would very much have liked to do a Promised Land, fish out of water story — but I think that’s about the one thing that turned out to be beyond our resources.

DAMIAN: Even after you’d finished the libretto with the help of Nicolo Rosetti’s translation, did you ever imagine it would sound so spectacular on screen?

RUSS: Well — Matt’s never come up short. He doesn’t know how to fail. But I think it’s pretty spectacular, even by his extraordinarily high standards.

DAMIAN: I know it’s something you’ve tried your hand at but whose idea was it for Matthew to make his cameo appearance as the conductor of the opera?

RUSS: I’d talked about the John Barry cameo as the conductor in Deadfall (1968). So – I’d always thought it would be lovely if we could get Matt to appear. We shot a lot more than was used. Maybe when we do the Director’s Cut.

DAMIAN: Where were the opera house scenes filmed?

RUSS: La Fenice. A.k.a. Wimbledon Theatre. My only day on set that year, I think.

DAMIAN: And what was actually filmed in Venice?

RUSS: Mmm. This probably sounds flippant, but it really isn’t — the bits that are obviously Venice. All else was sleight of hand. Budget only allowed us to send Shaun and the most skeleton of crews. Real guerrilla stuff. So — what Kate did in FILM 3 was quite incredible. Miraculous, in fact.

DAMIAN: We’ve talked about The Godfather (1972) before but was the juxtaposition of the opera scenes with the shooting and death of Violetta inspired by the climax of the third part of Francis Ford Coppola’s trilogy (1990)?

RUSS: Well — that all took place in the opera house and on the steps. I knew I always wanted it to end on the Isola di San Michele — the Island Cemetery. 

Death in Venice (1971) was the jumping off point for everything. As a notion – rather than literally.

It felt climactic – La Boheme; Traviata… the doomed heroine. It was also a bit of a salute to the great Baz Luhrmann.  

DAMIAN: Violetta tells Endeavour that she is sorry and that she loves him but did he really love her and, if so, how might this love compare to his feelings for Joan?

RUSS: I think he was absolutely beguiled. The Grand Passion. I think it was all about the new decade. He’d decided to try to be somebody else. To say yes where he’d usually say no. To be a new person. And that turned out well. Another life lesson.

DAMIAN: God knows – along with attempting to discover the identity of the Wednesday sandwich – I’ve tried in the past but I know you’ll never tell me which Endeavour you consider to be the best or pick a favourite but might you concede that ZENANA deserves a place in the top ten at least?

RUSS: Well — that’s very kind of you to say. Honestly, I’m no judge. I like bits of all of them, I suppose. I guess that’s the challenge of having so many regular characters — you might think that such and such a film was great for Max or Dorothea or Bright or Win… or Strange or… and so on.   

DAMIAN: After all these years and episodes, I wonder if it becomes easier to write the scripts but more difficult to actually film them?

RUSS: The process has probably got more challenging year on year. Shaun and Rog have never wanted to tread water. They’re not interested in just doing a straight whodunit. Ever. So – that’s always a challenge. Everything has to come from or impact upon their characters. Rog likes something he can get his teeth into, that lets him stretch his muscles emotionally. Shaun – it’s all about the journey that Endeavour’s on.  So — each series, outside of putting together 3, 4 or half a dozen Agatha Christie style whodunits — you’ve also got to take care of business on that front. You’ve got ‘Notes’ coming from about half a dozen  places. The Network, the Mammoths, Shaun and Rog, the Director, Compliance… They’ll all typically have their own preoccupations, some of which will align, some of which will contradict and compete with each other for primacy —  and if you want a happy ship, you’ve got to chart a careful course that addresses and resolves everyone’s concerns.

An innocent might be forgiven for thinking that writing a TV show is primarily about writing, but the job is – or, at least, has become – as much about squaring circles as anything else. Squaring circles and solving problems with as much elegance and economy as thirty odd years before the mast has taught you. The material you have at your disposal for this task is 26 letters of the alphabet in infinite combinations and a bit of punctuation. So.

DAMIAN: I know it won’t be much, but please tell us something about the final film with the ominous title of TERMINUS.

RUSS: Mmm. It became something other than it started out. But Kate Saxon returns, which is always a good thing. And she worked her own brand of magic on it.

DAMIAN: Well, we all have our entrances and our exits and I’m afraid we’ve come to the end. The end of our little chinwags but is it also the end of Endeavour?

RUSS: You’ll know the answer to some part of that question this evening.

DAMIAN: Russ, there’s never the time to say all that one would wish but you are the best and wisest of men, thanks for this and all the other interviews over the years.

RUSS: Oh – stop, now. Been a pleasure. Thanks for all of it.

~~~

CURTAIN

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_{Interview copyright © Damian Michael Barcroft 2021}